The Bodnariu case is undeniably all over the international media. I have seen articles and news broadcasts from Europe, Asia, America and Australia. In this clip, Ruth Bodnariu’s sister Ingrid Elisabeth discusses the case on Norwegian TV. I remember a line from Norwegian lawyer Marius Reikeras a couple of months ago to the effect: “Naustdal will soon become Norway’s most well-known place abroad.”
So true.
source: Mihai Dragoman FB
Delight in Truth 
Marius Reikerås is no longer a lawyer. He was disbarred in 2009. He has never had proceedings against Barnevernet in the County Committee nor in the District Court. I think it is unfortunate for the family Bodnariu that he is succeeding in taking such a prominent place alongside Ruth and Marius. Mr. Reikerås is not well-respected among fellow jurists in Norway. I have personal experience with him, and it is not a good one. I do not like his slick attitide. As the son of a prominent doctor he is used to having things his way without working hard. Reikerås is harming the case of victims of barnevernet and taking advantage of their desperate situation. That is my opinion, but of course you are free to form your own. But let it be based on facts. The rulings against Mr. Reikerås are available.
This is very unfortunate, Cecilie.
I trust your opinion on this, particularly since you have personal experience. I have spend a good deal of time around lawyers as I had to testify in court for “clients” regarding parenting classes I taught. There are many lawyers out there who are like this who get results. However, since he is no longer a lawyer, why is he even allowed to be connected to the case? From your description, I wouldn’t choose him even if he hadn’t been disbarred. Did the state choose him for the family?
Marius Reikerås is not a lawyer for the Bodnariu-family because he cannot represent them in court without a license. The Bodnariu-parents are represented by lawyers Ragnhild Torgersen and Ingrid Schancke Eikum.
i dont know M. Reikears in person, but when our politicians went ti Norway almost 1,5 year ago, he was among the first activists they have met. I thought he hawon some case in Strasbourg? Not sure. He is considered by many foreoigners as one of the strongest fighters against BV. He has given some wrong numbers to Czech media, but they defend him, the Budfir statistics are very confusing.
Sorry writing from the phone.. I wanted to say, but to defend him…
Marius Reikerås takes credit for winning cases in Strasbourg but he has never pleaded any cases before the ECHR, as far as I know. I was there with him in Strasbourg in the fall of 2012, and he was sitting in the audience. However, he has a large fan-group of women on facebook. They must be susceptible to his male charms. He is very tall, 195 cm, and speaks with the authority of a lawyer. I was impressed myself in 2010 and let Marius Reikerås represent me in my application to the ECHR. I even paid him NOK 10,000 in cash, but I regret the trust I put in him because he betrayed that trust. Therefore I warn others, so that they will not be misled into paying him money for non-existant “services”.
Anyone who betrays the trust of their client is not to be trusted.
I’m curious Cecilie, if he is not the Bodnariu lawyer then why mention him? I watched this last night and don’t recall seeing this man’s name in English. If he is an activist he is one for one of several reasons. His motives may be right, maybe he does this for the female attention as you have noted, or maybe there is another reason.
I have a question.
How did he become disbarred from his position as a lawyer?
I bet I can guess, but I don’t want to guess. I would like to know the truth.
I forgot to mention your main warning, Cecilie. You are concerned that others may be cheated by M. Reikeras.
Most Americans who like baseball know Pete Rose. He has made more money because he was not allowed into the Baseball Hall of Fame than he ever would have if he had gotten his wish and been inducted. He was a great player but those who know the truth know that he is not very smart apart from his gambling and lying problems. He has baseball smarts because he devoted his entire life to it. It has left him weak in other areas.
If this man Reikeras had money as his goal, he has taken the correct “road.”
Rose did it unintentionally.
As a lawyer MR could have earned a lot of money but unfortunately he showed bad judgment. He wanted alot of money fast. It takes many years to build a profitable lawyer-practice. MR blew his chances. Easy come, easy go, as they say.
It’s a bad strategy to attack Marius Reikerås. It’s more important to look at how he succeeded in representing us to the international community. No one can at present replace Marius Reikerås. We use what we have. And he does a good job. He is also good at disseminating information on human rights. Therefore, he is absolutely necessary in an amount cases where Norwegian lawyers fail. Besides, there are some strange circumstances around that he lost his license. Since we are on a Christian site: the Bible seems to have higher standards of rule of law than what Marius Reikerås have experienced.
So, you are saying he was disbarred unjustly, Arild. Do you have evidence of this since this man is very important in your view?
Dishonesty is not part of my strategy. I set honesty above everything else because it is one of the ten commandment: You shall not lie.
But that said: I think it is a bad long term strategy to affiliate with corrupt people.
Marius Reikeras is at the front of the battle against CPS and human rights violations in Norway. He is a prime source of information for many outside of Norway (primarily via FB). I think he has done a lot of good attracting attention to these CPS cases. I’m sorry to hear there was a personal fallout between you and him, Cecilie.
But I think we must unite forces to get the children back and reform CPS.
He is just giving standard information which you can find everywhere, Delight. I am not the least impressed. It is a lot of hot air. He gives the impression that he is giving you something while he is actually stealing from others. One article he wrote, was plagiatism from lawyer Christine Hamborgstrøm. The reason he was disbarred was that he betrayed the trust of an elderly affluent client. The son was alerted when he noticed a lot of money was missing from his father’s bank-account. MR has not returned the money and went personal bankrupt some years ago. That is why I had to give him money in an envelope. I subtracted 100 NOK because I knew he was not going to report it as income and if less than 10,000 it would not be my responsibility. I am sick and tired of him. I just wanted to inform you that he is not entitled to the title of “lawyer”. I am a law student myself and I think it is a lawyer’s duty to do what is right.
Perhaps we should describe Marius Reikerås as a “legal commentator” or a “human rights activist” or some such. I’m not sure if the Bodnariu family have got him involved or if he has involved himself; I suspect the latter.
Finally, a copy of this with English subtitles. Thanks for finding and publishing this, Delight.
I think Ingrid Elisabeth does a very good job here under the circumstances. Her words will be twisted and misused by Barnever(net) to build upon the mountain of lies already spoken.
It is informative.
Chris: “Her words will be twisted and misused by Barnever(net) to build upon the mountain of lies already spoken.”
Yes, that is routine with the CPS and their superiors, but I think her appearance may have made a good impression on many ordinary Norwegians, made them perhaps think that there really is something gravely wrong in the way the CPS has treated the family. I think the CPS complex, particularly at political and ministry levels, are worried.
That is good news, Marianne. She certainly represented her family well.
At least the larger community has heard the truth from a close family member, the only one who was allowed to speak about the case during 1 hour broadcasting…We now know that “beating” was not practiced, and not at all as a measure of upbringing the children – such it is expressed by the law. She also succeeded to make public and confirm the initial motif of concerned in the mind of CPS…and how the “snowball” started rolling downhill.
The Words of the lawyer Marius ReikeråsI should be noticed by our tourism industry, because Naustdal is located in our highly appreciated fjord area.
Please stop spreading the false rumour that Marius Reikerås is a lawyer. He is not. He was disbarred in 2009 and has served a prison sentence for threats. Ruth and Marius Bodnariu are reprsented by lawyers Ragnhild Torgersen and Ingrid Schancke Eikum.
See their photos here:
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/terrorangrepet-22-juli-anders-behring-breivik/anders-behring-breiviks-mor-faar-ikke-bistandsadvokat/a/10039464/
http://www.siste.no/innenriks/fengsel-for-bortforing-av-egen-sonn/s/1-71-6302901
Cecilie, I don’t think anybody can expect people over in America or Romania to inform themselves in detail about the various conflicts and differing opinions and motives among CPS critics in Norway. Such conflicts have existed all the years I have been engaged in this field, all “groups” and a lot of individuals doing things the others disagree with. We cannot fight against obvious CPS transgressions in this way.
The link you have provided regarding prison sentence, is to an article about a mother going to prison for something in a child custody conflict.
Marianne this is interesting I think. Mari Trommald trying to put the responsibility on the courts and county comitee. Now even if they go against the deciding n of CPS they don’t release the children. Mar Trommald seems as a person with whom you can not cooperate. Defending fanatically till the end . http://www.advokatsylte.no/barn/bufdir-direktoren-holder-oss-for-narr
I understand what you are saying, Marianne, but Cecilie knows this man personally and if she has judged him correctly and he is highly profiled in this case for any reason, I would like to know about him. I only have one question remaining at this point, however about this man whose last name starts like mine:
Why was he disbarred? Cecilie mentioned some kind of threats. Does anyone know the particulars? This may seem like it is distracting from the main issue for some, but since someone here knows something that may be important, I think it is good that she shared it. We will be off this subject very soon after all are satisfied with communicating their thoughts on this man. Everyone can come to their own conclusions about him and we leave the topic behind and move on.
My focus is on our CPS, only a little information to you. As far as I know the English Language, the title lawyer is given to those having studied law.
A lawyer or attorney has the right to represent someone in court. It is the equivalent of “advokat” in Norwegian. Marius Reikerås was disbarred in 2009; consequently he no longer has the right to call himself lawyer although he still has the academic degree of someone who has studied law. He is profitting from the Bodnariu-case and using it to his advantage. His modus operandi is to contact all parents who have a high-profile human rights case so that he can be seen as their “saviour”.
The links were to photos of the Bodnariu-lawyers. The photos are from another context, not the Bodnariu-trial. Read my text. There are no photos of lawyers Ragnhild Torgersen and Ingrid Schancke Eikum together with Ruth and Marius Bodnariu, but there exist a whole lot of photos of them together with “lawyer” Marius Reikerås, who is enjoying the limelight.
It is provocative to see how the Norwegian fight against barnevernet takes place. All against all. Groups against groups.We must strive to cooperate on everything we can cooperate on. The goals are not quite the same. But where the road (“Directions” in English?) Is the same, we must work for peace.
“Ditto” is Arild Holta…
That would explain things if true, Ditto.
I thank you for your shares, Cecilie. Because I like to use correct and reliable information and articles from reliable professionals in my letters to politicians anywhere and HR institutions and the press etc. So thanks a lot. Greetings from Belgium.
Thank you. I try to give accurate information about the case. I wish Ruth og Marius would give more details. Even the dates of the proceedings is kept secret. I really hope the county committee of Sogn and Fjordane will decide to return the children.
Cecilie, do you know, what kind of court will there be in May? There was a rumor that it will be a criminal court, but that can not be right I think?
The Bodnariu case was on our national tv nrk for about 15 minutes there a sister of Ruth spoke for the family and Naustdal municipal with the councilman.
I’m sorry to tell that the ten minutes they spoke gave me little hope for the reunuion of the family. The aunt gave a good impression and her information said much about the stubbornness and the fighting spirit the CPS have in the wrong direction. The Councilman continues to speak of their good intention to the best for all the children in Naustdal – including the Bodnariu.
Salvesen tried to speak of this case in the further debate, but there was very little room.
Now the family must go further is my opinion – the part done today was not enough to give the common Norwegian the information they need to understand that this case handling done from Naustdal is demaging for the reputation of the CPS national and international.
As I have said many times now – if this story is somewhere close to the truth in the Costea version – it’s about corporal punishment and the parents says they will stop with this and accept help measure the case is on another track than removal. We are on the reunion track.
This councilman have the look I recognize in some that seldom or never is in a situation like this. He has the look: We shall fight and prove that we are right – this competition face where winning whatever costs, consequences, laws and future for a family og seven living in .. his … municipal no longer is important. He is one of the main characthers in the scary movie from Naustdal.
There was something unusual over this female debate leader this time. If you look hard enough you see sorrow in her face. She has studied the Naustdal case some more than the common Norwegian ever will. I think she has had some emotional reactions attached to her preparation work.
I suppose the common Norwegian don’t see or hear what I see. I have seen from the comments in the media that Norwegians have no empathy for violence done to children – not this kind of parental violence either. Have they done it – then – take the consequences.
I think the family should talk sense to their lawyers – the CPS is Naustdal is ready to go down with the ship if necessary. I heard one sentence that might be an opener – the Councilman said that it was important to listen to what the children said/want – I think there will be little doubt about their willingness to come home with some help measures accepted by the parents. But – in Norway we have TV 2 and I think they are more willing to show the common Norwegians what the CPS in Naustdal is willing to fight for. We also have the newspaper Aftenposten with one female journalist Lene Skogstrøm who might take the time and opportunity if given Insight in the documents.
I don’t know what the lawyers do for the parents – if they do things just legally right or if they fight back and tell the CPS that removal is out of the question with parents accepting what they have done; accepting help measures – they where unknown to the CPS and thus have never been given a chance to show their willingness to change a.s.o. I hope we do not find any or some other CPS’s that trump the “we know best and know what you’re like” card on a family they never had heard of before this considered emergency.
Knut,
You wrote:
“I hope we do not find any or some other CPS’s that trump the “we know best and know what you’re like” card on a family they never had heard of before this considered emergency.”
What do you mean by this? It sounds like you are critical of the CPS in Naustdal. If this is the case, can you not understand why many are upset about the many cases that come from all over Norway that are almost identical in nature?
Knut Nygaard has its background in a part of Christian tradition where it is acceptable to punish their children physically. As always, he sees the world from his own perspective.
Thus, we have dissent within the pro-CPS camp.
I have large difficulties to see that the CPS work done in Naustdal is on the same level at the rest of Norway read out of the Costea version. Not just difficulties – I hope someone help them to stop this version of the Norwegian CPS. I did not see or hear anything close to that consideration in this debate in the news following. This case seem of no interest for common Norwegians, most of my CPS colleguaes and the media – and I wonder what the parents lawyer have done and do – will they let the partens speak to the media? – or will they take the chance that the court are able to understand and decide in favour of the possibilities of a reunited family?
I know we Christian should not gamble, but as I read this debate the odds in favour of the family are not good.
We in Norway – Christians or not – do not punish our children physically.
This is a very conflicting statement, Knut.
First you make this comment:
“The aunt gave a good impression and her information said much about the stubbornness and the fighting spirit the CPS have in the wrong direction.”
Then you comment (and you have made similar comments at least twice):
“Now the family must go further is my opinion – the part done today was not enough to give the common Norwegian the information they need to understand that this case handling done from Naustdal is demaging for the reputation of the CPS national and international.”
I don’t understand you.
Your wrote:
“this competition face where winning whatever costs, consequences, laws and future for a family og seven”
Really?
I read the situation to be ??, but the Councilman give the impression that he, their lawyer Roar Vegsund and the CPS will …. and I hear him say … because of what the children said … fight for their safety as they would have done for anyone in the municipal.
We had a little talk some colleguaes and I the day after the debate. We are many that have met Vegsund. I think his first job as a law man was at our office as our advisor. Later we have met him on the other side – as the parents lawyer – and now he is among others the municipal lawyer for Naustdal and possibly Stryn.
We agreed that the Vegsund we have met is a reasonable man and not a hard nut. So why this handling done by the CPS in Naustdal? Either Veronica is right – there is more and harder violent abuse that the Bodnariu organization reveal – or – the persons involved in Naustdal have taken the case into a process there they seem unable to stop – for a lawyer and further business with the municipal it will be hard now to say: Oh – I have reconsidered and think we must end this now – we are out of the step with what other CPS’s do in such cases – we do more harm to the children than good and although we could hide behind what the girls said in November it’s obvious that they all will home and the parents accept help measures”.
I agree, Knut, that there are only these two alternatives. The worldwide demonstrations come from those people who believe strongly that Veronica is wrong.
This is why they fight so hard.
Are you working today, Knut, or are you this personally interested in this situation and not because of finances?
I am leaving now as I am looking forward to Bible Study, Church, and a visit with my parents. I will check your response later.
Another important question is: Is there a possibility that considerations of personal prestige also play a part? Is it so that the local administration had decided to defend fiercely the good name of the national CPS system and particularly the local practice?
Remember the last words said by Inger Elisabeth: “They can anytime withdraw the accusations – but they don´t want to”…
We are just in one CPS headquarter – and that is in Naustdal. Please don’t fool yourself by silly conspiration thinking. The situation to this one family is too serious for that nonsense.
DNV: “Is it so that the local administration had decided to defend fiercely the good name of the national CPS system and particularly the local practice?”
Definitely. The local Barnevern unit is employed by the municipality. That means that the municipality’s politicians and administration are Barnevernet’s employers. The general attitude in Norway is that defending the employees and the whole public organisation is so important that they have forgotten that the primary task of the administration and the political body is to render service to the community, not to protect themselves. They will always be far more concerned to defend their employees than to satisfy people who complain. And CPS victims who complain can anyway be despised and distrusted, they are stigmatised in the public eye.
Welcome DNA.
Informative comment, Marianne.
You never answered my question, Knut.
Chris: “I don’t understand you.” …. “You never answered my question, Knut.”
I think you may perhaps find an expression of Mr Nygaard’s intentions here, Chris, and in several other remarks he has made:
“I have large difficulties to see that the CPS work done in Naustdal is on the same level at the rest of Norway”
He seems to want to distance himself from the CPS in Naustdal because he suspects that they are becoming so unpopular that he must save the reputation of other CPS offices and the whole system by insisting that they are altogether different.
They are not, however. You find at least equally atrocious behaviour towards children and parents in all parts of the country, and there are accounts from local CPS offices everywhere, although some counties may be worse on the whole than others, whether accidentally for a while, or more entrenched.
To take 5 children without warning, letting them believe that their parents are going to die, letting them be exposed to something which leaves scratches and marks that cannot be explained, keeping them away from the parents for months, months of uncertainty and longing – having an education which pretends that that does not affect children terribly negatively, perhaps for years, perhaps for life, but rather believing that the children are safe being kept away from their family – all of that is completely normal for CPS workers everywhere, we see it in case after case.
I think you are right about Knut’s thought process, Marianne. The entire system has been painted into a corner and each worker will react differently. I think Knut is expressing his thoughts and they are conflicting and contradictory.
I know what I would do if I were in his shoes. I would quit and find an honest job.
I think as Christian we should reconsider our (too violent it seems to me) way of treating Barnevernet people AND Norway as a whole. Instead, take counsel of our own Scripture:
Galatians 5,23-25:
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith,
gentle behaviour, control over desires: against such there is no law.
And those who are Christ’s have put to death on the cross the flesh with its passions and its evil desires.
If we are living by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us be guided.”
Seeing the expression of the moderator of this TV show, I found this lady really hurt; she tried her best to be objective, but… she was really indignant of the misunderstandings arisen. We must stop trying to demolish another nation’s legal system, it’s ridiculous, of course we won’t succed. As a whole, protests did a lot of good signaling how things are, but our primary goal should be, I think, to obtain justice for the Nan, Bodnariu and other families gravely harmed. Even if they are very, very wrong (in our eyes), those Vvet workers and their obtuse leaders deserve our compassion and brotherly, benevolent prayer!
Well stated, Agnes.
I don’t think we are focused on Norway’s legal system. If the Barnever(net) followed Norwegian law, as far as I understand it, the Bodnariu family and many others would be with their families. It is the abuse of Norway’s legal system that we are concerned with. Why do they not follow their own laws?
Also, agnes, I agree with you that some are not separating many good people in Norway from this issue. As Christians we are to seek the truth before we make comments that may be harmful. I’ll admit I have made this mistake many times in my life and a few times here. We are all on the learning curve. I also agree that prayer is most important.
The public sector in Norway has extreme power. Through governments, the media, trade unions and the courts. Barnevernet is one of the worst symptoms of this.
Here I have written about the mixture of power, where the union is central instrument of power, with control of the political parties, the media and governments. Unfortunately I have not got it translated into English.
http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=228&t=8263
Arild Holta
What is your main point here, Arild?
Power corrupts.
“The public sector in Norway has extreme power.”
So, it is the public’s fault that this corruption is taking place in Norway, Arild? If this is your point, I agree with you. It seems like much of the public is hiding their heads in the sand. One organization whose membership makes up a large part of the public is the state church. These, I think, should be the greatest critics of the unjust decisions made by the Barnevernet. It is a Christian’s duty to point out injustice, try to correct corruption, and make an effort to see that the truth prevails. The silence of church leaders and members is indicative of the problems with Norwegian society. We have had these problems with churches in America for years, too. We haven’t seen such and extensive problem within our CPS systems, however.
This case will not be solved by reason and the usual use of the Child Welfare Act. The legal part – CPS in Naustdal – has given back the baby – that’s all the get – the bargain is one back and we will take the rest if possible. That is not the usual way to handle this kind of case. When parents admit their use of parental violence and accepts help measures another process is open than removal. This family has no history in the CPS; they have been given the baby back and are still Christians, so that is not the case – or? They have not received any help measure and still they got their baby back – so fear of the parents hurting the baby by parental violence is not the case – so what is the case, CPS in Naustdal?
Knut,
Christians have principles.
If the Bodnarius lie to get their children back, they have disobeyed God’s Word.
That they won’t lie to get their children back gives me great respect for this couple.
Knut: You make a very good point – but what was the bargain about, and under what legal umbrella? Does an encasing fear exist in CPS that, by returning the children /retracting the accusations of violence, a dramatic precedent is done, so many other families will ask for reevaluation in the Court?
You must drop thinking of any other case than this – the Naustdal CPS is just thinking of this one case and we in other municipal CPS’s have no part in what’s going on in the particular case.
I read the CPS in Naustdal – and please – forget all the others – they are not involved in this – to be in a situation where the work done by the expert – this come from the Bodnariu organization and I don’t know if they speak the full truth – has concluded that all five could return, but they returned just one and seem willing to fight to the bitter legally end for their caseview for the four others.
There are no possibilities of reevaluations coming out of this case in Naustdal whatever decision the court end up with.
Knut, has a judge given the Bodnarius one of their 5 children back, or is it the administrative agency? If it is a judge, giving back one out of five seems very strange to me, surely if one is at risk then all are and if one is not at risk then none are? The main possible rationales for this (they could only cope with one child either socially or economically) seem highly unlikely in this case. As an employee of the organisation how do you interpret what is going on here?
Pavla, the majority Norwegians in discussions you have mentioned just don´t buy the family´s story that the children had been only mildly spanking… The people have been wondering what the mild spanking would mean and if there is any objective definition of it. They have had idea of more serious violence in their minds… If it had not been more serious, the policie wouldn´t have investigated the family for so long period of time and the police attorney wouldn´t have spoken about the breaking of criminal law in the case of four children (the baby has not been treated violently according to the police). Marianne has reminded us of a story of “Linda” when the Police was critized because of their inappropriate action. What did happen? A boy had complained about some kind of violent behaviour of his mum in the morning and his teacher contacted BV (and BV the police station) . Police authorities went for mother to her job and she was arrested. But it was revealed that the violent behavior had been just mild and the family was reunited the same day. The police action rose strong reactions because the Police hadn´t behave in respecfull way. Yes. the mother broke the law in this case and she faced some consequences (charges etc.) but the removal of the child to a foster family had been out of question. The boy just answered the questions of the Police and proffesionals in a Barnehuset and then he could go home. The Children act specifies that the (emergency) removal of children may be an option only in cases when it doesn´t cause greater harm to a child than staying at home with parents. It may be the reason why many Norwegians are suspicous towards the family and they don´t think it´s about something trivial. Their interpretation may be false, but only in case of breaking of the law by BV and the police.
Norway is not the only country which prohibits any form or corporal punishment, quite opposite. The international organizations such as the UN or the Council of Europe critize periodically these countries which has not banned corporal punishment yet, including the Czech republic. Romania (the native country of Marius) has had the same set of rules as Norway and all corporal punishments have been illegal since 2005 (without any exceptions). So the Romanians should educate and discipline their kids without using force, the same culture as in Norway:
The romanian law states:
“Corporal punishment is prohibited in the home. Article 28 of Law No. 272/2004 on the Protection and Promotion of the Rights of the Child, promulgated through Decree No. 481/2004 (in force 2005),
states: “(1) The child has the right to be shown respect for his or her personality and individuality and may not be made subject to physical punishment or to other humiliating or degrading treatments. (2)
Disciplinary measures concerning the child can only be taken in accordance with the child’s dignity,and under no circumstances are physical punishments allowed, or punishments which relate to thechild’s physical and mental development or which may affect the child’s emotional status.” Article 90
states: “It is forbidden to enforce physical punishment of any kind or to deprive the child of his or herrights, which may result in endangerment of the life, the physical, mental, spiritual, moral and social
development, the bodily integrity, and the physical and mental health of the child, both within thefamily as well as in any institutions which ensures the protection, care and education of children.” (http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/assets/pdfs/states-reports/Romania.pdf)
I would be happy if the Czech republic followed this path and I´m supporter of the end of all forms of corporal punishment- it´s not possible to write an objective definition of “mild corporal punsihment”. Everyone has its own concept what is it and what the term “mild” means and it´s not easy to write into law this definition.
I wish we were less tolerant to corporal punishment as well in the Czech republic…
“Pavla, the majority Norwegians in discussions you have mentioned just don´t buy the family´s story that the children had been only mildly spanking… The people have been wondering what the mild spanking would mean and if there is any objective definition of it. They have had idea of more serious violence in their minds… If it had not been more serious, the policie wouldn´t have investigated the family for so long period of time and the police attorney wouldn´t have spoken about the breaking of criminal law in the case of four children (the baby has not been treated violently according to the police)”
Yes, that is how it should be..in theory. The majority of Norwegians obviously trusts that everything goes at it should. I never understood, how can people so blindly trust their government and authorities.
Secondly, if people are going to report incidents like slap over the fingers and mother throwing a towel at the kids, then I am quite worried. I can not imagine that a small child would tell to the kindergarten teacher, that mum was acting violently against me… He would probably say just that “mum threw a towel at me” or something like that. In that case I dont understand why would a teacher report such a silly thing like that. That the police has arrested the mother without even knowing what on earth is happening in her home, is outrageous. How do we know that this was unique incident? How many people will publish it in the media? Is this to protect the children? So now obviously social workers go to the schools and teach kids that they should report things from their homes? Where is that going to stop? Next time , when a parent is going to argue with the children, they will just threaten to call social services?
Hildi, of course, we all understand, that children should not be removed for ocasional spanking, but here we hear from Knut and Veronika, that children will not be removed from their parents for that. But I have my doubts. Children were removed for much less than occasional spanking.
You are right, Pavla. Children in Norway have been removed for even less than occasional spanking. Newborn babies have been taken away from their mothers even before they have ever had the chance to do anything harmful to their little sweethearts….
And I forgot to mention babies that are thrown back and forth like in the case of Bodnarius youngest boy. First they come with a whole troupe of police to pull the baby away from its nursing mother. Some months later they find out it was a mistake and give the baby back again ….. without appologizing, of course…. Barnevernet never appologizes!
I fail to see his good point, DNV.
“They have not received any help measure and still they got their baby back – so fear of the parents hurting the baby by parental violence is not the case – so what is the case, CPS in Naustdal?” – this is the point and the main question we all mutter. In other words what could be the legal reason not to return de other 4 children? A slap occasionally in stressful situations?(cf. the information given by parents and recently by Ruth´s sister on TV)…An isolated slapp cannot be “parental violence in upbringing” – as expressed in the law. There is a recent precedent in court on similar matter. This should be the issue for debate in B. case…
I now see why you made your comment, DNA.
In his same comment Knut wrote:
“When parents admit their use of parental violence and accepts help measures another process is open than removal.”
Thus, Knut is saying that the Bodnarius need to admit parental violence to possibly get their children back. What violence has been done? An infrequent swat on the rear end? To admit violence would be a lie. The Bodnarius are Christians like I am and we have instructions from God not to lie.
Knut is the same man who made this comment earlier up this thread:
“Now the family must go further is my opinion – the part done today was not enough to give the common Norwegian the information they need to understand that this case handling done from Naustdal is demaging for the reputation of the CPS national and international.”
So, Knut believes that the family “must go further.” Does that mean they won’t get their kids back for 6 more months, a year, or two years?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding Knut because of his use of language, but you can see why I made my comment about failing to see his good point, DNA. Knut seems very inconsistent in his responses.
Honestly, I cannot understand how this blog works….Anyway, I also consider Knut inconsistent – as inconsistent and unpredictable as the practice of the law in PC-system. After having delivered a number of theories, he comes with the question without an answer: “So what is the case, CPS in Naustdal?” – a relevant question. Is it a matter of pride, prestige, lack of admitting a failure, etc. – or there are more subtile issues underneath the surface? We don´t have enough information, but based on what the family had admitted and the aunt has explained on TV my impression is that beating the children (“educational violence”) is totally out of question, and should be tried in court(County Board) on May 30th.On the other hand, my experience as a support person of Romanian families in similar situations, shows that PC will find another reason after the Board has ruled groundless accusation of parental violence. The children might be kept in custody either because “a lack of parental care” or “returning to the family could be a trauma due to having been away too long” or God knows what…If the parents loose the case on May 30th, they will have to take the case to a higher court, and maybe find a lawyer who goes in to win the case!
You are doing better at working this blog in this thread than I, DNV.
“On the other hand, my experience as a support person of Romanian families in similar situations, shows that PC will find another reason after the Board has ruled groundless accusation of parental violence. The children might be kept in custody either because “a lack of parental care” or “returning to the family could be a trauma due to having been away too long” or God knows what…If the parents loose the case on May 30th, they will have to take the case to a higher court, and maybe find a lawyer who goes in to win the case! ”
You sound like you have much more personal experience in these cases than I do, DNA. Having heard of several Barnevernet horror stories directly from those affected, I think you might be right in the above assessment. Knut is telling us that because his employer has been embarrassed the victims must pay…more. So, it is very possible they could find some other reason not to return the other four. Are you familiar with another case where children were kept in custody because “returning to the family could be a trauma due to having been away too long?”
This kind of statement might as well be “You’re never getting your children back.”
Very disturbing system: when I press “reply” button on your last comment, another window opens saying “Leave a Reply to Chris”…so I now use this one. Yes, I do have personal experience in these cases. That´s why I cannot sleep at night,…it`s 5.30 am in Oslo right now…The fact is that I gathered information the last 5 months, and only after the B-case was made public in Norway. I had no idea of these tragedies around me before that. And yes, I know about several cases where the possible trauma due to having been separated from parents was used, one in particular, but cannot reveal details on this channel.It seems that PC is purposely pulls the time so the trauma of return to parens is more or less obvious…..Now I have to get some sleep, but shall be back later today…Good night in the morning! We can also use email channel til I get accustomed to this blog-technique!
DNV: “An isolated slapp cannot be “parental violence in upbringing” – as expressed in the law.”
Yes, it can. It actually is, it is up to the courts to say whether it is negligible or not, but the law was “strengthened” a few years back, the purpose being to make even a light slap on the hand of a child a criminal offense.
Recently there was a case of a mother whose two children were fighting, she could not get them to stop, in exasperation she threw a towel at one of them, and was taken to task! She was indicted, but let off (I ought to remember or find again an article which said she was either prosecuted or the charge was dropped; there certainly was all the preparation for a court case anyway.) But no general conclusion is drawn from this, there has been no suggestion I have heard of on a political level of any change to the law.
I have had great trouble getting Romanians to hear: Any slap, any hard grabbing of an arm, certainly a twisting of an ear, they are in Norwegian law criminal violence. So there are two different facts to cope with:
1. You can argue that Norway should change their law, that it is inconsistent with human rights, with practical possibilities in life, or whatever. I agree with you. But that is an issue for a longer debate, however, or possibly for a case against Norway taken to the European Court of Human Rights (it is difficult to take it to the ECtHR without a concrete case though), which takes several years. I can see no chance of it being possible for the Romanian community to get anywhere by arguing directly, in connection with how the Bodnariu case should be handled, what the law is.
2. What should have been done in the Bodnariu case and what should be done now. The parents have broken the law. In my opinion: The civil action of the CPS ought never to have been to take the children away, because such an action harms the children greatly, far more than mild physical punishment/correction can possibly have done. That is the way the CPS in Norway usually goes about things though, it is precisely the core of what we are fighting against. The CPS action of taking the children was wildly disproportionate, and it is getting even more disproportionate to keep them away.
The CPS would have been justified in talking very seriously to the parents, explaining that it is all illegal and that they must cease immediately or else. The police would have been justified in investigating for a short period and then giving them a fine. If the parents had accepted that, there would not have to be any criminal-court case, no time wasted on that. There is no reason to believe that the physical punishment of the children has been serious enough to warrant prison sentences, but even that would have been better than the situation which has been created. The children would then have had to stay with their grandparents while the parents were away serving, if they were both away at the same time.
I do not think anyone is well served by mixing up those two issues. The CPS acts harmfully in other cases too, and that has to be fought against. In fact, the cases relating to physical punishment / violence / abuse are a MINORITY, most cases are about psychobabble. The CPS certainly should be stopped in those cases, they are at least as seriously destructive.
See ya, DNV. Don’t know what you mean by “email channel” though.
Don´t bother, Chris! I was implying that more information deservs confidentiality.
About the discussion above of why the baby was returned and not the others:
I think I have written already in another comment that it is just guessing, since the family has not published anything from the verdict. Possible guesses then:
The court might think that although the parents have punished the older children “as a means of child-raising”, they will not do that to the baby, since the baby is not of an age to learn right from wrong in that way.
They might also have thought that since the final decision of whether the children are going back home has not yet been made, it is unfortunate not to give the baby a chance to “attach to the mother”, since the court probably accepts the CPS superstition about bonding/attachment “having to” take place at such and such months in a child’s life and that it will later be too late.
The court might accept CPS arguments about the older children having “traumas” from their parents’ punishment of them, traumas which the CPS says have to be treated by long psychobabble before the children can possibly go back to the “traumatisers”, while the baby has not been hit and therefore has no “traumas”. All of this is also in the CPS ideology and courts tend to be impressed by the seeming scientific depth of it. I have seen several cases of SOME children being taken and their siblings not – the CPS always comes up with some mumbo-jumbo explanation.
“Hvorfor tar barnevernet NOEN barn i en søskenflokk men ikke alle?”
(Why does Barnevernet take SOME children in a group of siblings but not all?)
http://www.mhskanland.net/page2/page288/page288.html
Sorry about no English translation.
“Yes, it can. It actually is, it is up to the courts to say whether it is negligible or not, but the law was “strengthened” a few years back, the purpose being to make even a light slap on the hand of a child a criminal offense.”
I guess every parent should have their children taken according to the law in Norway. Thanks for the intel, Marianne.
I agree Marianne. But I think if there was even a slight doubt from the court about the father beating with fists and kicking the kids , the baby would not be returned. That is totally another level than spanking.
I have also realised that in Norway is 0 tolerance to corporal punishment. If my kid would run into the street or want to touch hot stove I would rather slap him to prevent him from much bigger harm. But well that is where we differ from the Norwegians. That is why Bodnariu don’t have such a big support among Norwegians but have in other countries I think? I find it very unfair the way they are described in Norwegian media
Marianne you said that the law on corporal punishment was strenghtend few years ago? Could you explain? That is what Ruth has also said, she did not know it was that strict..I was wondering
After reading some comments on FB I have found.it shocking how no. Norwegians were thinking about how bad is it for the kids to be isolated and separated from each other and placed hours. away from home.
Most have said how is hitting the kids against the law and in Norway you have to follow it. One even said she would want to be removed from violent home. She spoke in theory..few were wondering about the help measures. On. the other side the most foreigners were pointing out, how bad. Is it to grow up without the family and be raised by strangers. That should be only in the extreme cases. Indeed totally different perception.
Edit: not all media but most. The TV. Show was good giving them space to explain and Ruth’s father wrote a letter that was published. But most are quite one sided, not looking into what it means for the kids to be separated etc
Pavla: “Marianne you said that the law on corporal punishment was strenghtend few years ago? Could you explain?”
Will do. I have a good, but long, clarification here from a lawyer. But I need to go through it and write a summary, I think. I will post it down at the bottom of the comments series. You must give me a day or some hours.
Pavla – CNN had a report from Sweden around 5 years ago – here you find some links that show you that there is a whole network behind the international work to end corporal punishment
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/index.html
We can all google, Pavla.
http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/progress/country-reports/norway.html
Hey DNV, if you have a Facebook account just look me up and friend me. I am Chris Reimers of Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Hey Knut, who gets to define “corporal punishment” in the end? Is it an international body with the power to take children from their loving parents?
Maybe holding hands will be part of the definition, too. Then the “state” will control all of the children, except the ones that are unloved. Maybe this is the ultimate goal, to break up the family instead of encourage it. I know that laws have been passed in my country that have hurt family life. Many are living together outside of marriage because of financial reasons. There are codes that encourage “co-habitation.”
See: http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files/Fichtner-Hidden-Cost-ch7-web.pdf
I know I am on a side road here but as they say. “All road lead back to Rome.”
We have so many left what scripture teaches and are all following their own path? This is why the world suffers. This is what the scriptures say:
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Hebrews 12
Anyone who has been a Christian long knows about God’s disciple. I’d rather have a good spanking any day. My mother gave me a good spanking one time that, I’m sure, left marks. I love and respect my Mother. She was a wonderful witness not only to me but to many others. Just because I may not think spanking is right doesn’t mean that I should take that right away from someone else. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ABUSIVE SPANKING. In fact, I taught parenting classes for years and remember one particular parent who got in trouble with our local DHS for abusive behavior. After seeing pictures, I agreed with the assessment.
Common sense leaves when there is no understanding of right and wrong. I would prefer to be disciplined by God than to continue in my own stubborn, sinful ways. I know that “sin” is a word that is not used as much as it used to be. Why is that? It is because many people want to do their own thing. “Obedience to God? What is that?” they say. As shocking as it may sound, obedience to God is still important to God no matter what the world thinks.
DNV: “Does an encasing fear exist in CPS that, by returning the children /retracting the accusations of violence, a dramatic precedent is done, so many other families will ask for reevaluation in the Court?”
Yes. Their whole professional history would be at stake. Doing what Naustdal CPS has done, that is what they learn to do.
Good that you use common sense. We all were wondering how on earth would a judge return a baby if there was any doubt that the parents were violent as the accusations are. Plus the baby was returned without a stay order from CPS. , it would not make any sense..return the baby but not to observe the situation. I am quite sure there is not more than what we read.
Now you start to talk like us Knut, you are on the right path!
The above comment was for Knut 24apr 2.35am
Pingback: Ruth Bodnariu’s Sister Discusses Case on Norwegian TV – English Subtitles | Pastor Ciprian Barsan
My name is Daniel Popa one of the organisers of the 16/4/16 Protest here in Adelaide Australia.
You may find useful the facts which i have used in my speech.
Thank you
Please share this clip if you think that is useful.
Thank you Daniel for your excellent speech and for helping organize the protest in Adelaide, Australia. Your comments about the Norwegian church is particularly appropriate.
I am so impressed with the Romanian reaction to this oppression. A great Christian people came out of the former communist country. Romanians understand the eventual outcomes of communism. They can sense a similar thing happening in a “democratic” Norway.
Thank you Chris. We are all humbled to share in our brothers and sisters suffering.
I have added it, Daniel:
http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?p=37221#p37221
but I am humbled by seeing Chris thanking you for an excellent speech, because I can hardly hear what is said but would like to hear it properly. Nor can I make subtitles click in – do they exist?
Dear Marianne, sorry for the poor quality of the audio.We have never organized a protest before.We can learn a lot from our mistakes.Here is the transcript of the speech.
It is with these concerns presented so far that we protest today in an effort to spread the story and raise awareness of the matter, standing united, and in solidarity of support, for Norway’s return of ALL of the five children to their parents Marius & Ruth Bodnariu.
Today we are as motivated and passionate as we have been for the last five months. As the time passes by and Barnevernet refuses to return the children to their loving family, thousands more are coming to know that Norway is not the country which prides itself in the world to be, and that traveling with children to Norway is as dangerous as traveling through war torn Syria. The malicious intent and the excessive force which Barnevernet has proven capable of in destroying thousands of families are no secret any longer. Like in a horror movie, more and more videos uncovering the abuses of Barnevernet are streamed onto the internet every day.
Through our protest we want to make a plea to the Norwegian Government to look into what has become an international scandal in which Barnevernet is at its core.
We the Romanian people have been oppressed many years by a communist regime, which has imprisoned many people who dared to remain faithful to their moral values. Looking back today we see that, that evil is long dead and we are no longer under its rule.
Norway, our hope today is that you will be wise and learn from others mistakes. The flawed policies of your Child Protection System and the unreasonable force you use against normal families will one day haunt you .The Bible states clearly:
Whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
We have all gathered today in the thousands around the globe, to show and say that the pain of the parents, whose children were taken away unfairly, is also our pain and burden. You are not alone. God is fighting for you.
Barnevern, you have not only taken the Bondariu children, you have taken our children too! The longer you refuse to return ALL the Bodnariu children back to their loving parents, the more you are fuelling what has become a worldwide shameful scandal.
Norway, do you pride yourself in watching your beautiful flag being associated with child kidnapping? Don’t let the flag of Norway which represents the true values of your country become a symbol of oppression and torture toward the most vulnerable, which are the children.
By now, some of you will consider my words to be a misrepresentation of what is truly going on in Norway, but let’s look at the facts and then make a judgment on the true nature of this matter.
The initial charge against Bodnariu family was Cristian indoctrination, this charge was carefully removed later by Barnevernet and replaced with charges that Bodnariu parents have used violence against their children.
Up to this moment there was no evidence whatsoever, and of any kind that the children were subjected to violence against them by their parents.
We all today applauded the decision of the county board in Norway to return the baby Ezekiel to his loving parents. If violence against their children would have been found true, then how come the baby has been allowed back into his parents arms?
We continue to pray and hope that the rest of the Bodnariu children will come home soon too.
Let’s take a minute to look at this matter from a different angle:
Solveig Horne is the present serving minister in Norway in charge of the Department of Family and Children
She is a single mum having been divorced in 2003 after 16 long years of marriage in which 6 years she has attended marriage family counselling in trying to save her own marriage.
In an interview at a prestigious news outlet in Norway she openly admitted: Quote:
‘’I have not succeeded in my marriage!’’ End quote. Here you have the Minister Solveig Horne in front of family counselors. Looking for help to become a better mother and wife. With all this effort her family could not be salvaged and now she shares the custody of her two children every second week.
Any of us would think that she would know best having gone through such family experience, how to render mercy and to understand the difficulties a normal family goes through.
But does she? She represents and leads such an important portfolio in the current government, looking after the welfare of all families and children across Norway. Is she up for the job she has been entrusted with? It seems NOT. Let’s look at this fact:
The Minister for children Solveig Horne talking to the FPA is specifically explaining the policies of the government when it comes to family and children: Let’s hear what she has said:
‘’We have some challenges in getting the information out there to people in Norway namely that Barnevernet is there to help them and not to take their children away. We put a lot of effort in training our staff in how to help the people with an immigrant background.
Our policy states clearly that taking the children out of their home is the last resort.
I’m clearly giving instruction to Barnevernet staff that you must try every method in helping parents and their children while they are in their own home. I can assure you that we are doing the best we can to prevent taking over the custody of these children by the State.
Some parents have understood that is illegal in Norway to spank your child but they don’t know what other methods to use in the upbringing of their children. That’s why we need to give them the tools to be good parents. The one good thing we are doing is to help the parents and in doing so to ensure that the children are been kept in their own homes.
This issue is high on our agenda.’’
Dear Minister Horne, your ideas are to be applauded, we would all support your ideas 100%. If your policies would have been honored in the Bodnariu case, the Nan case and the hundreds of other cases we would have not been protesting here today.The facts are stacked against you. No one from Barnevernet has ever bothered to come to speak with the Bodnariu parents prior to you abducting their 5 children with no prior notice.
Just like a bird of prey which comes upon an unsuspecting creature, the state of Norway has unleashed a deadly assault upon the Bodnariu family.
Today, we call for an immediate investigation in the Bodnariu Nan, Radulescu, and hundreds of other cases where the policies of the government have been disobeyed and so, these beautiful families have received their death sentence handed over by the state of Norway.
Dear Minister Horne, there is clear evidence that either you have no control whatsoever over the department you are in charge of , or your nice talk is just a smoke screen and the real face and policies of the government when it comes to children is not that of helping and protecting them but something more sinister. Which one is it?
Barnevernet failings are mounting up as a big mountain pressing down and tearing apart the beautiful image of Norway.
After abducting tens of thousands of children from the arms of their loving parents, and placing them in state care institutions and foster homes, Barnevernet fails grossly to look after their victims, and abandons them in awful conditions.
Two weeks ago in Norway a report was made public where it states that 76% of all children in the state care are suffering of one or more serious psychological issues.
Barnevernet is a death camp where thousands of children grow up in Norway to be mentally ill. With a great fear and trembling I want to remind the people of Norway of the horrible year of 2011 in which Norway have been scarred forever. The greatest mass murderer Scandinavia has ever seen is Anders Breivik. He is a middleclass Norwegian which has slaughtered 77 people and injured a further 319 people in Oslo Norway out of which 69 ware young people attending a youth camp on a beautiful island of UTOYA. The big question all Norwegians have asked, is how was it possible for Norway to give rise to such an incident?
The answer is not difficult. A simple search in who Anders Breivik was, would uncover a wealth of insight.
Breivik’s parents divorced when He was 1 year old. His father was a diplomat working for the government. He was absent from the life of his son. This absence of a father was something which made Breivik to look elsewhere for recognition and acceptance.
The one father who would have constantly encouraged Breivik and tell him ‘’Good on you’’ decided to make a run for it, at such an early stage in his sons life.
That left his son Anders constantly hungering to be affirmed and encouraged by his father.
Anders father had four wives three broken marriages having left behind a legacy of destruction hard to imagine.
Here are some of his words fallowing his son’s mass killings: Quote:
I will never be able to return to Norway. “Some people do feel I am guilty,” he says. “I do have feelings of shame, disgrace. Damnation. Maybe … maybe I am to blame.”
In Norway nearly half of all marriages end in divorce. There is a vast destruction of the family unit, a culture of death and misery is promoted on a national scale.
This corruption and departure from the family based values will pile more sorrow and untold pain on the people who promote it.
Every child needs his mother and father and the state will do well to get behind the family and seek their welfare and to strengthen them.
What we witness today in Norway is the opposite.
The state of Norway uses Nazi-like tactics of intimidation toward parents whose children have been swallowed up by the unspeakable evil monster of Barnevernet.
This has to STOP.
Ultimately I want to address the issue of why the Church in Norway is silent on this unspeakable crimes against their own fellow brothers.
One of the greatest God given mandate to us is to give justice to the poor and the orphan also to uphold the rights of the oppressed and destitute. Psalm 82; 3
It is no secret that the church in Norway is subsidized by the Government. The State has given 840 million US $ in a special fund for churches in Norway. A country of just 5 million inhabitants where only 2% of the population is attending church, such small minority have been bought to silence with a lot of cash by the government.
Shame on you, leaders of the church in Norway, shame on you people who claim to love God.
While we have wept for the last 5 months and fasted, most of you have probably indulged yourself in the abundance of cash you received.
Repent, weep and come back to your Lord and Saviour.
We pray that you will hear the call of God today and listen. It may be your last chance before your country will go down in total chaos and misery.
May the Lord help us all today, and may he grant delivery today to the Bodnariu family and many other families suffering at the hand of Barnevernet.
Strange, Marianne. I can hear Daniel very well.
Then I am at a loss, Chris. I don’t think it is my computer either, it has a very good sound unit and I listen to opera on it.
Daniel! I take the liberty of publishing the transcript on Forum RVB, unless you object. Then I link to it in the thread with all the demonstration videos and so on.
You can publish it Marianne.
Thank you
Daniel
The Romanian Adventist Community from Loma, Linda, California (the most powerful Romanian Adventist community from outside of Romania) is supporting Bodnariu case:
I know this community and have met with their pastor as we were planning the Los Angeles protest. Great people.
Honolulu, Hawaii – Protest Against Norwegian Barnevernet:
Very cool, Octavian. I listen to a pastor from Hawaii almost weekly. I hope this gets posted to the Armonia Magazine.
In the link you gave us, Knut, it says; “violations of the prohibition are punishable by fine or imprisonment”.
It says “fine” or “imprisonment”, but nothing about taking away children from their parents. So how come this is anyway happening?
“This shall also apply when violence is carried out in connection with upbringing of the child. Use of violence and frightening of annoying behaviour or other inconsiderate conduct towards the child is prohibited.” Violations of the prohibition are punishable by fine or imprisonment under the Penal Code provisions on assault and the causing of injury (arts. 228 to 232).”
The “fine” or “imprisonment” is given in accordance to the Penal Code – the possible removal of children in accordance to the Child Welfare Act. Both possibilities are activated when children tell or verify violence done by parent(s). The international organization with it’s goal to end all corporal violence has only an eye on the Penal Code consequences.
I believe removing children from parents for having spanked them mildly both crazy and terrible; Crazy because the “punishment” is far too big considering the fact that mild spanking is legal in most parts of the world and not even fined; Terrible because children are in fact harmed to a far higher degree than any spanking ever could!!!!!! Barnevernet is actually punishing the child by taking it away from its parents by force on the grounds of spanking! That is something I am truly convinced about!!!!!
These three entries:
Hildi’s of April 25, 8:37 am,
Mr Nygaard’s of April 25, 8:57 am,
Hildi’s of April 25, 9:27 am,
taken together give a very good view of the legal aspects of the case. Especially Mr Nygaard’s
“The “fine” or “imprisonment” is given in accordance to the Penal Code – the possible removal of children in accordance to the Child Welfare Act. Both possibilities are activated when children tell or verify violence done by parent(s).”
is quite right and should be realised clearly by everybody, WITHOUT in the same second bringing in WHAT Barnevernet did. That is of course very important, but it is another matter.
What Barnevernet did and does: Barnevernet TENDS to react to every “problem” by taking the children away from the family. The law does NOT say that they SHOULD take the children if such-and-such, it gives them the right to “assess”, and act on, what is in “the child’s best interest” according to their own ideology, taught them in their education and practice. Such assessment in no way depends on any violence on the parents’ part, it can be anything that they DEEM to be unfortunate for the children now or some time in future.
These assessments are based on faulty thinking and reasoning in psychology – quack psychology. A central part of it is this psychology’s idea that biological parents are of no particular importance to children. They therefore believe that taking children from the parents, keeping them away for months, even years, has no bad effect on children (real research shows the opposite, but this is not a part of their teaching/learning and they refuse to take it in), and that children’s needs are perfectly met by “care givers” in the form of institutional personnel or fosterers. The Raundalen committee’s report a couple of years back was the culmination, it exposes that view perfectly: They advised that Norwegian law should no longer carry any mention of biologically founded attachment, instead the committee came up with “development-enhancing attachment”, which they thought children got from a stimulating environment and so on. Their whole psychological ideology does not recognise feelings which they do not understand, feelings which are not part of this ideology. They believe that spanking is bad, so a child should be taken away from it, and that taking a child from its own parents does not matter, so they see nothing wrong with doing that.
This faulty psychology has no explanation for the terribly bad results of foster care. So they try out all sorts of “explanations”, like “the parents had harmed the child irrevocably BEFORE the child was rescued away from them”, “the child needs more care, up to the age of 23”, “the child must be given more psycho-therapy, more ‘trauma treatment’ to counteract what the parents have done”, etc etc etc. (Much such “treatment” is in itself considerably harmful, but Barnevernet does not want to recognise this, because it would show up the essence of their work for what it is: meaningless and harmful.)
So the faulty psychology is what Hildi’s second posting above (of 9:27 am) attacks, and quite rightly. Human beings are not like that, they are not indifferent to their very own biological family. But this faulty psychology has been spreading gradually and is quite dominant in social work all over the western world. Remember what Vaclav Klaus Jr said at the demonstration in Prague a year ago: The groundwork is all in place in Czechia also, and with new, eager social workers “we will have the same inferno here”.
“These assessments are based on faulty thinking and reasoning in psychology – quack psychology. A central part of it is this psychology’s idea that biological parents are of no particular importance to children.”
How wrong can these “intelligent” people be, Marianne? If they believe so strongly in the “psychology” you have mentioned, why are CPS workers not putting their kids into the system?
I cannot look into their brains, I can only suppose from the way they act and reason in other people’s cases that it is because they think that in THEIR OWN case, they have been excellent carers, have not made any mistakes which have harmed the children, and that THEREFORE their children have bonded with them.
It is easy to judge and condemn others, to come to think that parents who do such-and-such do not DESERVE to have children. The ideology does not take up whether the children perhaps deserve to keep their parents. The children are supposed to be mechanical products of more outer influences, conditioned by the environment, and so on. Child protection workers, caught in their own belief in the importance of the environment, the milieu, are blind towards the importance of growing up in one’s own BIOLOGICAL milieu.
As you know, Marianne, this is a hypocrisy of the highest order.
Ruth’s sister did a wonderful job in the interview! She proved to have both integrity and wisdom!
I am asking myself if barnevernet in Naustdal was biased in the decision to confiscate the Bodnariu children. Cristian Ionescu, the pastor of Elim Romanian Pentacostal Church in Chicargo, has studied the Bodnarius documents. In an interview he said that the Bodnariu parents were in disagreement with the sexual education the children were recieving at school. I have, from what we have heard about the whereabouts of the children, noticed that they are staying with people who are, at least partly, opposed to Christian belief and values. The lady who is taking care of the girls is not married but is living with her boyfriend. I don’t know about the boys. But one of the boys was ridiculed by the people where he is staying for a Christian song he was singing.
I thought barnevernet is supposed to strive to find fostercarers who have the same beliefs, worldview and similar background to where the children came from. In the Bodnariu case they obviously have found families which have quite the opposite beliefs and values. I have the feeling that they did this deliberately to influence the children to distance themselves from their parents Christian beliefs and values. It was after all the parents and relatives ” very Christian beliefs” that was the concern which triggered barnevernet to get involved.
Christian leaders in Norway were quick to discard the notion that the Bodnariu case had anything to do with Christian persecution. But I believe they were wrong! What we see today in Norway is that those who stand up for Biblical truths are increasingly hated. Persecution usually comes creeping…. And I believe we have already seen the beginning…
The first comment I ever made on this blog was just about that – but the story I told is about 25 years old – so – the way the ordinary school may functionate in a way that is looked upon as anti-Christian is not a new agenda:
“People who have no relation to faith on a personal level have no experience of how it’s to be a child in such a home. They wish all to be so alike that they fit in at school and in the society as a whole. An example: some years ago at son in a radical christian home should bring him one cd that he should play something from and tell the rest of his class why he chose this. The kid – age around 11 – took wiht him this cd
and just by a look at the cover the teacher made his thoughts. This cd was presented to the class after a girl had presented hers – Alice Cooper. The teacher became curious and asked the boy if he could borrow the cd – and the weeks passed by and the father had to contact the teacher to finally get it back. What impact it had on the teacher or if this was a preparation for something in the direction of the CPS I don’t know, but people in a secular society don’t know what to think about christians who take their fate seriously.
In Norway we have christian private schools. It’s interesting to know – and study – how these pupils grow up. Although tables are turned there is no garanty that they will leave school in the same harmony as they were when they started. And when they disharmonice a family it hurts more than in the more common teenage rebelling.”
I’m pretty sure I understand your point here, Knut.
Would it be possible for you to summarize it in a few sentences?
I have a good impression of the Bodnariu family. I believe Ruth’s sister when she says that barnevernet has misinterpreted their children. Ruth and Marius are both loving, caring and family orientated. They spent lots of precious time doing wonderful things together with their children. I can imagine how much the children loved spending time with their aunt and also their grandparents.They have very many relatives in USA. And they have lots of friends!
I can very much understand the stress of having little children and renovating a house. I have been in the same situation myself. I spanked the children too a few times when they were not behaving and I was very tired and in a difficult situation where they had to stop and nothing worked. I know I shouldn’t have. It also happened very seldom. I asked my eldest daughter the other day if she remembers any occassion where I spanked her. She said that she remembers two times. But then she quickly added that she was behaving very badly. She doesn’t seem to have taken any harm of it though. All of our children are very outgoing, happy, active and funny:-) I can imagine the Bodnariu children also being quite lively and happy while they were with their parents. Barnevernet seems to be blind for all the priviledges they had being with their own biological parents. The fact that the girls thought their parents were going to die and that one of the boys was dreaming of their family reunion shows so clearly how they just long to be back together with their loving mamma and pappa!
klaps på tassen er IKKE vold….definisjon av vold etterlater merker på kroppen