Hello friends from Norway
I am dr. Chris Prunean from California, the blogger at delightintruth.com. As a father of 4 children and a physician, I would like to motivate you, the great people of Norway to no longer be silent about the human rights violations committed by the Child Protective Services in Norway.
It is now international news that the Norwegian CPS is removing children from good and loving families for trivial matters, and in the process it violates basic human rights.
The CPS confiscated the 5 Bodnariu children in Naustdal without a social investigation, without warning, and without due process for the parents. Moreover, no evidence of abuse was found on any of the children. Now imagine the horror the parents have experienced when they found bruises and scrapes on their children during visitation! These are injuries which happened to the children while under CPS custody!
Ezekiel, the youngest of the children was a 3 month old nursing infant when he was taken. It is a crime against humanity in any society to remove a nursing infant from his mother’s breast, without any evidence of abuse.
Since the Bodnariu case was publicized, many other CPS victims have come forward with their cases in social media. They want to let you know about the injustice they have suffered at the hand of the CPS.
On April 16th, 2016 we are asking the good people of Norway to once again step up and fight injustice, this time against Barnevernet. Come out and join the protests in Stryn, Oslo, and Bergen and let the govt know that family rights and human rights cannot be violated in Norway!
I am asking you to join with hundreds of thousands on multiple continents on April 16th to protest against the CPS, to force the CPS to return the Bodnariu children and other children unfairly confiscated back to their parents.
Together, let’s make this a modern D-Day. Let the children come home and reform Barnevernet.
God bless you all, and may God bless Norway.
***
Hei venner fra Norge Jeg er dr. Chris Prunean ifra California, blogger på DelightInTruth.com.
Som far til fire barn og som lege jeg ønsker å motivere deg, de gode mennesker i Norge, å ikke lenger være stille om brudd på menneskerettighetene begått av barnevernet i Norge.
Det er nå internasjonale nyheter at norske barnevernet fjerner barn fra gode og kjærlige familier for trivielle saker og i den prosessen bryter de grunnleggende menneskerettigheter.
Barnevernet beslagla fem Bodnariu barn i Naustdal uten kilde etterforskning uten forvarsel og uten rettssikkerhet for foreldrene. Videre ble ingen bevis for misbruk funnet på noen av barna.
Nå forestill seg hvor forferdelig disse foreldrene har opplevd det når de fant blåmerker og skrubbsår på deres barn under samvær. Dette er skader som skjedde med barna mens de er under barnevernets varetekt.
Ezekiel, den yngste av barna var tre måneder gammel, han var et diende spedbarn da han ble tatt. Det er en forbrytelse mot menneskeheten i ethvert samfunn å fjerne et diende spedbarn fra mors bryst uten noen bevis for overgrep.
Siden Bodnariu saken ble publisert, har mange andre barnevernsofre hadde mot til å komme frem med sine saker i sosiale medier. De ønsker å fortelle deg, folk i Norge, om urettferdigheten de har opplevd i hendene på barnevernet.
Så på 16 april 2016, spør vi de gode menneskene i Norge om igjen stå frem og bekjempe urettferdighet. Denne gangen mot barnevernet.
Kom og bli med i protesten med styrke, i Stryn, Oslo, Bergen, eller hvor det nå er, og la regjeringen få vite at familiens rettigheter og menneskerettigheter kan ikke bli krenket i Norge.
Jeg ber deg om å delta med flere hundre tusen demonstranter på flere kontinenter på 16 april for å protestere mot barnevernet for å tvinge barnevernet til å returnere Bodnariu barna og andre barn, urettferdig konfiskert, tilbake til sine foreldre.
Sammen, la oss gjøre dette til en moderne D-dag.
La barna komme hjem og reformer barnevernet.
Gud velsigne dere alle, og måtte Gud velsigne Norge.
Delight in Truth 
Amen! Let the children come home! May Norway hear your resounding words and respond accordingly, I pray! God bless you for your tireless work!
Reblogged this on newlife.
Reblogged this on ENCOURAGE by cornelilioi.
We’ll done, Chris. If it hadn’t been for your blog, I may never have heard of these great injustices.
I continue to pray for those who have been on this blog and the country of Norway.
Reblogged this on Wings of the Wind and commented:
Chris is a Christian man who has been instrumental in getting the word out about the injustices in Norway.
As a physician you should know the difference between pasients that have a situation that is done with a date fixed and those who have a situation that is done after the emergency scheme.
The public services involved handled the Bodnariu case in accordance with criminal law § 282 – violence in the family – and in accordance with the child welfare act § 4-6, 2. section. The daughers told a story that the parents have partly confirmed. The ridiculous part is why – if all cards are on the table – this can’t be handled with measures given at home – that is my opinion – from the outside looking in, but I don’t know all the details and have not seen any documents from this ongoing case.
Neither does Mr, Prunean seem to know the details in this case as he has not understood the emergency context.
In Norway we have just around chronic 200 CPS-haters – some with diagnosis – who hate the CPS and other public services. By doing so they get “therapy” from people ouside Norway believing this is some kind of reality. You have just the same in your own backyard. Around 20 of these are what we can call activists who believe they know something from the outside looking in. Then again – we have a couple of self-proclaimed specialists – and around 10-15 videoes – the rest is from other places in the world. “CPS in Norway may vary bey municipality, but generally people in Norway do not call CPS for ridoculous reasons.” These articles and videoes are posted as retro ammunition and the new ones on the activist/support scene coming in from the support of the Bodnariu case see this and might think it’s “new” material.
There is a legal case going on in Florø – i think – today and tomorrow. You in the support team will get som details and we all hope for the best for the famiily. Of cause you have freedom to demonstrate and do whatever you like, but that have not impact on the legal cases nor the CPS in Norway.
You must understand one thing – Norway as a nation have no intention to snatch anyones kids. We have laws and public services and possibly you have some of that in your surroundings. The child welfare act is based on the principle that a child belongs to it’s family. Removal is only done when all help measures given to the child and parents don’t alter the care. This may take years. Nobody have any intention to use the tax payers money on purposes not needed for. This official care is not cheap. It’s much cheaper for the nation not to take care of any child. It’s only you that are misguided – the rest of the world knows the truth both about Norway and our CPS.
Then why so many cases of removal? Do so many vicious parents gather in just one small nation? And if any bruise can be labeled “abuse”, why are not foster parents monitored even more closely then natural parents? Why “Glassjenta”?
What about those you call “CPS-haters”… are they wrong, totally wrong, even when they come with facts, serious opinions, etc, only because you label them like this? Did you ever listened to them carefully? What means truth to you?
It is obvious to many of us abroad the cruelty of separating children and parents is infinitely more domageable to kids than what some label as “violence” or “unappropriate way of raising children”…? Of course the children MUST be protected when the natural parents are very, very unsuited as educators: but this does not apply to all cases when children have been removed. Never forget Breivik’s biography.
Breivik grew up with his mother. He was never removed. Taken just from my memory the CPS got criticism for doing nothing during an investigation done when he was around 4 years old. If done – 77 people most likely would have been alive today.
Mr Nygaard’s contention here is that to be taken away from one’s parents hindres criminal conduct and would have stopped Anders Breivik from becoming one. That is not generally the case, quite the opposite: former foster children are statistically over-represented in prisons and as drug abusers.
Knut, You deliberately say that spanking is “violence” just to incriminate the parents, it seems like this is what Barnevernet does. “Violence” is to remove children from loving families and give them to strangers.
Octavian – you live in Arizona and can spank and do whatever you like for us in Norway, but in Norway these parents in Naustdal as any other parents in must accomodate to our laws and regulations.
I flere land er fysisk og psykisk avstraffelse av barn i dag forbudt både i skolene og hjemme. I Sverige ble såkalt aga, det vil si kroppsstraff og vold som oppdragelsesmetode, helt forbudt i folkeskolen i 1958. Svenske foreldres rett til å slå barna ble avskaffet i 1966, og et uttrykkelig forbud ble innført i Sverige, som det første landet i verden, i 1979. Siden har flere land, særlig i Europa, vedtatt tilsvarende lover, blant annet i Norge i 1987. For øvrig har foreldre i Storbritannia fortsatt lov å slå barna, så lenge volden ikke setter synlige merker. Disse lovene har forsterket den holdningsendringen som allerede har vært på gang.
In Sweden the parents right to use violence in the upbringing was abolished in 1966 – expressly forbidden since 1979 as the first country in the world to do so – Norway followed and spanking and other ways to use violence on children have been forbidden by law and criminalized since 1987.
In the UK it’s OK to hit children as long as it’s invisible – don’t make scars.
And thank you, Knut, for hoping the best to the family! We do too, even if some of us you could see as fanatics/lunatics, etc. We are all God’s beloved children, including the CPS workers.
I left this same comment on “Norway, Give us back the children you stole” FB page:
Knut, we do emergency surgery when THERE IS A NEED for it to save the patient. How would you feel if you have a simple cold, or better yet, nothing at all, and your doctors open up your chest to do heart surgery???
THIS IS THE BODNARIU CASE. They took the kids impulsively and abusively.
Knut,
You posted this exact comment to my blog. Very odd.
I know Dr. Chris personally from very long time, also I know his father, a respected Senior Pastor in California. I know many of the Bodnariu family and many of his extended family, also many of his friends, church mates and former pastors from Romania where he grow. I know Romanian principles of raising children and I know the values of the Romanian families. Myself, I am oldest of 12, I have my own 6 children, 5 grandchildren….i said all that staff to understand that I know what means family, parents and children and I understand the relations, actions, disputes, arguments but also the beauty of sharing, peace, loving and co-habitation in a large group. Based on all that argument, Dr. Pruneanu is not misguided, contrary, maybe is one of the voices who supposed to be listen by anyone. The rest of the world and us, know exactly the difference between speaking sincere from the heart and speaking for the money, because if you are sincere with yourself, looking in the mirror before go to bed, you know you are false in most of your comment in any blog you visit and if you are not paid by Norwegian government, you will joint us for truth. Even here, in your comment above, you listed many lies: “The child welfare (in Norway, I added) act is based on the principle that a child belongs to it’s family”…wow, you really believe this statement?….or this one: “Removal is only done when all help measures given to the child and parents don’t alter the care. This may take years.” Unbelievable….you can say ONLY ONE measure given in Bodnariu case? Where’s the years you mention here?….another one: “Norway as a nation have no intention to snatch anyone’s kids.”….if that’s true, how can you justify ten of thousand of kids “snatched” every year by ….and here is need it one specify: in the end, who takes the kids? Barnevernet, a independent department where even government no have access to check and balance or the government himself? That ping-pong of declaration covering each other and passing people from each other, depending the interest, is proof how slyly your people work…..what about that: “The daughters told a story that the parents have partly confirmed.”…the “story” was leaded to became a story….if daughters “story” is so important to your people, how come they judge only in one direction and when daughters ask to go home, nobody care? I give you one advise: instead running from blog to blog hopefully you will find some adherents to trust you, change your focus in proving that “child welfare act is based on the principle that a child belongs to it’s family” and start to do that with Bodnariu children. Doing that, you will win our respect, otherwise, you will remain the “last of the Mohicans”, trying to resurrect a death ..country in many hearts.
Thank you for the kind words, Cornel
I said the truth….nothing more than truth. God bless you, Chris, and your family.
Violence in the family? None of the Bodnarariu children were found to have had any physical or psychological signs of abuse after having been confiscated by barnevernet. However, that changed when they were forcefully placed in fostercare by barnevernet; the boys were seen with bruises and scrapes whereas the girls turned out to have been scared like never before that their parents might have died…… I wonder who is responsible for violence here? I am sure that it isn’t the biological parents!
The parents have confirmed some of the information given by the daughters. The parents and the lawyers have accepted an examination done by a neutral psychologist – they will meet in the county board in the month of May – if – and I hope so – something is being altered today or tomorrow. This is about legal handling of the case – not about cheap arguments that are no legal arguments.
The parents and the daughter have never confirmed any kind of abuse. Pads on the children’s bottom is not abuse of any kind. All the children want to go home and love and miss their parents.
Please do not spread misinformation, Knut. I repeat: no drugs, no alcohol, no physical and no sexual abuse in this case. Period.
I wonder what barnevernets general point of view on disciplining a child is, Knut? By that I don`t mean spanking, but to forbid the child certain things and punishing the child if it it doesn`t obey.
I have heard some who argue against spanking, who compare it with the fact that you wouldn`t spank your wife or husband either. That is clear. But I do not believe you can compare the way you behave towards your husband or wife with the way you behave towards your child. It is a totally different relationship. A child needs to learn how to behave in a good manner that will prevent it from doing harm to others and to itself. A grown up is responsible for its own actions.
Some Pentacostal leader in Norway, who wanted to defend barnevernet, said that the most important is to show a child that you love him/her and that Jesus would demonstrate this love by letting them come to him, take them on his lap and care for them. A totally agree! Showing your child that you love him/ her is the most important! But the Pentacostal leader missed out something important; If you abstain from disciplining a child, you don`t demonstrate love towards your child!
To take an example, let`s say that your son or daughter has the habit of occasionally not coming home from a friends place on time. He / she is supposed to do his/her homework but is too tired to do it properly because of being disobedient and coming home too late. Would you demonstrate your love towards your child by just letting him/her continue in the same bad habit? Or wouldn`t it be wiser to give the child some form of punishment as a way to teach the child that disobedience has consequences?
No child likes to be punished. In the case above, I as a mother, would probably forbid my child something it likes like for instance playing with his/her friend in the weekend or watching his/her favourite TV-series.The child would of course protest and be upset. It would hurt. But as a parent, I know that my child would benefit from being punished and consequently learning to obey.
When my kids were little,I would sometimes tell them to stand with their faces facing a wall and to think about what they had done for some minutes, if they for instance had been mean to a sibling. It was really hard to make them stand there. But I think it was important to intervene.
Now, I would like to know what barnevernet think about such disciplining and what their opinion is about disiplining a child?
http://www.bufdir.no/en/English_start_page/
http://www.bufdir.no/global/Forskningskunnskap_om_barnevernets_hjelpetiltak_Christiansen_mfl.pdf some of it in english
Knut can’t seem to respond to your very good points, Hildi.
I tried one of the links he gave and my computer wouldn’t allow it because it said it was dangerous to my computer.
I will not click on any links that Knut gives in the future.
I couldn’t find any answers to what I was asking for from the links he posted, Chris. I don’t know why he posted the links instead of answering my questions….. I’m trying to find out myself by looking up websites about child- raising in Norway. But I haven’t become any wiser yet in that respect…. However, a very wise passage from the Bible comes to mind; “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” Proverbs 22:6 🙂
Great verse, Hildi. 🙂
I think that was exactly what the Bodnariu’s were attempting when they had their five children taken away.
Yes, I am afraid you are right, Chris… I was also thinking about what it says in 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 where several bad traits are listed that will become more and more prevalent in the last days. Among others is mentioned that children will become disobedient to their parents. I was just starting to wonder if that could be a consequence of the way children are being brought up without parental discipline and without being taught to honour and obey their parents.
I am familiar with the verse, Hildi.
I know that a time of apostasy is coming:
“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thess. 2:3
Many Christians think we are entering or in that apostasy now. I don’t know. But I am watching as Jesus asked us to.
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Knut, “violence” is to brutally remove an infant from his mother without any evidence of abuse. This act is the greatest abuse. I know to you this is just normal every day practice. However, for many normal people around the globe this is crime against humanity.
I agree 100 percent with you Octavian!
Interesting, so obviously the Legal representative of Barnevernet has visited Czech Republic and she was giving interview to Czech newspapers. Probably to correct some misconceptions about Barnevernet.
Obviously she was stating the things we have heard over and over again. Barnevern only removes children, when its necessary. They help families when possible, only in acute cases they remove children. Majority of the families (80 %) are happy with them, but there are some that are not.
I would like to highlight few things said in that interview..
The Barnevernet representative states that the chance to get the children back is very small. She does not know the exact number though. Children are removed only in very serious situations, but the parents can appeal every year if they situation has changed.
The number of parents who appeal is also very small..again she does not have the exact numbers, but she thinks it is less than 100 (from 1660 removals a year).
She also states, that if parents publish stories and photos of their children, it can be later used against them, because in that case they dont follow the best interests of their children, but their own interests.
She is also giving an example, why are siblings separated. Obviously they have a group of former foster children that are saying : why did not you intervene earlier? It is also better that siblings are not staying in one family but separated and able to keep contact..
As example , she is giving a family, mother and 3 children. Barnevern helped this family, but it was not enough. The oldest child is overweight and has problem at school. Younger children have ADHD. Oldest child cares for youngest children, family is chaotic. She admits that the mother somehow cares for the children, but obviously not well enough. The mother does not give the right food to the oldest boy, since he is overweight.
In that case children were split into different foster homes. The oldest boy was able to meet the mother often, but the youngest ones had restricted visitation. Why? Because Barnevern wants them to establish STRONGER RELATIONSHIP to the foster parents. This is what the BV representative said.
The journalist then asks , but if the children establish strong relationship to the foster parents, then the chance that the biological parents get their children back is very slim. Yes, that can be, it depends on how long they have been away and whether the situation at home has changed (again words of BV representative)
Next to it she also states, that the children have right to be heard. When there is a suspicion of sexual or physical abuse, the children are questioned by a group of specialist to ensure that its objective. All is filmed.
______________________________________
Ok, so the most interesting for me is that BV representative confirms, that they limit visitations of the parents and small children, so the children could establish strong relationship to the foster parents..This makes chances for the biological parents very small. If they keep the children away long enough, almost any child would establish relationship to their care givers.
The BV representative states, that publishing stories can harm the parents. This is in contrary to what the Norwegian ambassador said. According to her, parents are free to publish their stories and they are not punished for that.
The BV representative states, that children are heard..Well in my opinion children are mostly heard if they support the ideas of Barnevern. When the son of the Czech mother wanted to limit his visitations to 15 minutes each, Barnevern suggested it because they follow children wishes. When the oldest son of Vibeke states that he wants to return home (and all the other siblings too), his letter was disregarded.
I am not commenting on how objective is the interrogation of the children, I leave that one on to you.
How can the BV rep not know the numbers? Thanks for the info, Pavla. Just knowing the words of this representative shows how unprofessional this entire system is.
Chris, , I have thought that too. Actually I was wondering about the aprox. numbers for a while The BV representative says that they did not receive the exact numbers yet..ok
The 1660 of removed children a year. I dont know whether these are all removed, or are there also abandoned children for example.
Pavla,
When I hear things like this, it angers me. They must know but they are afraid to make the information public. It is an evil system.
That is correct. I also find especially alarming, that they would limit visitation of the biological mother and the children so the children could get better relationship to the foster parents. That is alarming.
Not likely that there are any abandoned children at all, actually.
Chris: “When I hear things like this, it angers me.”
As long as there are people being angered, there is still some hope – –
“The BV representative states, that publishing stories can harm the parents. This is in contrary to what the Norwegian ambassador said. According to her, parents are free to publish their stories and they are not punished for that.”
This is one among several examples of what, at the very mildest interpretation, is “deliberate misleading of the public”, Pavla. It is like this: When they say that the parents are not punished, they refer to criminal law. As long as the parents’ so-called “parental responsibility” (the newer name for “parental rights”) has not been taken away from the parents, they will not be charged with a criminal offense and put in jail for publishing pictures of their children. (When deprived of their parental responsibility, they can be.)
You see, don’t you, that in the eyes of our authorities being cut off from one’s children and being prevented from loving them, protecting them, making sure that they are happy and safe – that is not punishment! It all ties in with their idea that the relationship between parents and children is nothing much, not valuable. They believe it is a good thing for the children to forget – even be forced to forget by various nefarious means – their parents. The children will, according to them, have a less “skewed” development then.
Cf the section “Publicising the facts and development of the case” here:
“The child protection case in Norway about the Czech children of Eva Michalákova”
http://www.mhskanland.net/page45/page289/page289.html
” It all ties in with their idea that the relationship between parents and children is nothing much, not valuable. They believe it is a good thing for the children to forget – even be forced to forget by various nefarious means – their parents.”
Well articulated. This is why I think this is an evil system, Marianne.
Thank you Marianne. Everybody of course interpreted “not being punished for publishing” as not being punished in regard to her contact with children. That is why people were actually so angry once she got punished for it last year. Actually the story is only public about 2 years ago and she had limited visitation even before. So yes, they would use other reasons for that. Of course the biggest paradox is, that the father, who was the initial reason why the children were taken away. (suspected abuse) at the end is able to keep the parental rights to the boy he was supposed to abuse. He is also complimented that he thinks about the children best interests, because he does not fight to get them back. The mother though does and so follows her interest instead of her children. It is completely messed up.
Both parents have a confirmation from the Norwegian police. They are cleared of all charges. There were even Czech politicians speaking with the police commissary that was investigating the case. She is one of the witnesses for the mother.
Its a twisted ideology. But we also have so called experts. One psychologist has even said that after all these years the children should stay at foster parents. He has advised the mother to let the children be, they will appreciate it when they are adult. Why to cause them new trauma by returning to their biological family The mother should get new children.
This is what a psychologist is saying, I am getting worried.
Twisted ideology by so called experts. It is a sign of the times, Pavla.
” But we also have so called experts.”
Yes, exactly. The Western world is spreading its philosophy (not only Norway, unfortunately). That is why I thought Václav Klaus’s speech at the demonstration in Prague on 30 May 2015 was especially valuable:
“The problem is not only in Norway, even though the situation achieves the most horrific values in Norway … everything is pretty much ready here to start the same system. We already have the very similar “Barnevernet” law, we already have paid foster parents so people don’t take kids for giving them love but to get money. We have those so called non-profit organizations that organize the whole process. Now it is just about waiting when all the current social workers will be replaced by the zealous activists. Then the same inferno starts here as well. … The situation is serious and I really don’t understand (to) those appeals for peacefulness demonstrations because they’re stealing children! What could be wors(t)? They may make new regulations, they may increase taxes. So, ok, we’ll be poorer. But they are stealing children from mothers! Let’s resist, let’s fight back!”
I linked to a youtube video of it in the section “Norway’s missionary zeal and the usual responses to objections” in that same article about the Michaláková case:
http://www.mhskanland.net/page45/page289/page289.html
Yes, Marianne. Its is happening almost everywhere in the West.
I’m not an expert and the conclusion to the cases that I’ve read here could come from anyone with common sense.
And yes, let’s fight back.
Chris: “.. the conclusion to the cases that I’ve read here could come from anyone with common sense.”
Exactly. Neither social workers nor clinical psychologists have any scientifically based knowledge, any foundation, making them more competent than anybody sensible to draw conclusions and to decide what should be done in such cases. The question is rather whether their training, and their need to show that they “are needed”, have done away with a good deal of common sense, so that most people, grandmothers, siblings, cousins, even the children themselves, are at least as fit to decide.
So disciplining a child is completly forbidden in Norway, Knut?
Would the disciplining methods I explained above about for instance forbidding a child to watch his/ her favourite TV program if he/ she has gone against the parents rules or making him/ her face the wall for a few minutes to think over what he/ she has done be forbidden in Norway? Does this go under psychological punishment and be illegal? The Norwegian system bewilders me more and more…..
I am commenting in regards to all the previous comments….my question is, how can the country of Norway and whoever controls it, not be aware of these happenings…where are the Mother’s and Father’s, how can they just sit back and blindly let this all take place? Praying for the family that they will soon be back together….Thank you
A very interesting question, Elaine. I have a rather long answer – forgive me:
It has been long building up, probably as an unfortunate combination of several, initially unrelated, factors:
quack psychology (Freudian and other simplistic, mechanistic views of human beings, determinist – behaviorist – views current in psychology from the 1920s);
straight-jacketing, collectivist planning of how Norwegian families should be ‘constructed’ from the 1930s onward – much of it furthered politically by the Labour Party, which held undisputed power with absolute majority in parliament for several decades;
the development of the welfare state, furthered by all political parties;
the giant expansion of education of psychologists and social workers from the 1960s – they need work: something to do;
the continuation in these professions of the views, leading to brutal practices towards “erring” children and adults, which have been current for more than a hundred years (probably for much, much longer) – it was very visible in the sterilisation policies, which were far from unique to the Nazis, but were on the contrary practiced widely in all the Nordic countries as well as in Britain and the USA;
the international character of the beliefs that have gone into the education of the psycho-social professions – when a country starts developing educational programmes in some field, they look across the borders to see what other nations have done before them, and use each other’s text-books and influential people, hence the different countries that absorb this back each other up in their practices;
lots of different professions and groups are drawn into benefitting from the “child industry” and are “educated” to believe that it is good;
Norway’s colossal oil revenues from about 1980, making it possible to have all these myriads of public employees (our public sector is immense) and social benefits for people who do not work;
the Norwegian self-satisfaction with us having such a good “system” making nearly everybody’s lives so easy – our hubris is huge and goes deep, and carries with it laziness about investigating signals of any deep-rooted faults;
some features of modern feminism, leading to a down-grading of the traditional family, became dominant in jurist circles having great influence on legislation – this is evident in the current thinking about “child rights” that has gone into e.g. the UN Convention and its interpretation;
the placid character, politically conformist, of our type of Christian beliefs and practices (devout Christians led the treatment of the Taters (a gipsy-like population);
the general honesty and lack of corruption of OBVIOUS types, such as taking money outright, which characterises our public services.
*
There may be more factors but these spring to mind. I often say that today’s child protection system is the somewhat unplanned convergence of several unfortunate phenomena. Some in the CPS-supporting camp have “interpreted” this to mean that I am some sort of a “conspiracy believer” – that I think the CPS is a huge conspiracy. No, it is not a conspiracy; nobody has “got together” and planned atrocities, slavery, smashing the image of the family. It just so happened that several developments, and features existing in the culture, “came together” and strenghtened one another.
All of this is why I really think people who are concerned with stopping what is going on today in the CPS, should look into some of the history of it, should inform themselves better, instead of just protesting that “we don’t like this and why don’t you just take it away”. People are up against a large system, benefitting many people financially and with many deep roots, it certainly cannot be changed by a few superficial touches. All the people in some kind of power in Norway are going to resist any real change. They are going to suggest a few small “adjustments” and pretend that they solve all possible objections (like serving up the Hague convention as though that is going to help families/children in the grip of Norwegian CPS), and then they are going to hope all protest dies down.
“people …. should inform themselves better, instead of just protesting that “we don’t like this and why don’t you just take it away”.
I did not mean this as criticism of you, Elaine, I meant it mainly as criticisms of Norwegians, who generally do not want the CPS to affect THEM, but think that the CPS is no doubt justified in the OTHER cases they create.
Chris, Knut left the exact same illogical comment here:
…..and here: http://cornelilioi.com/2016/03/13/appeal-to-oslo-stryn-bergen-and-the-rest-of-norway/
Poor guy, I think he is paid based on posting on blogs, promoting lies.
Very strange.
Emanuel Fedur (Phoenix, Arizona): “Barnevernet is a demonical institution. We should not go with pink baloons against it”:
http://newsnetcrestin.blogspot.com/2016/03/pastor-emanuel-fedur-phoenix-arizona.html
Some important news today (it is 09.30 in the morning here in Norway). You have to give me some hours before I can post, summarise and do some translation of it, but here are some links anyway.
Our friend Jan Simonsen has an article in Bergens Tidende:
“Litt mere ydmykhet, takk!” (A little more humility, please!)
http://www.bt.no/meninger/debatt/Litt-mer-ydmykhet_-takk-3561130.html?xtor=RSS-2
The request for humility goes of course to our authorities.
It was quite fortunate that it was published just today, because at the same time there is an article, with minor variations, in a host of papers and on nrk (the national broadcasting and tv co’s web pages) saying:
“Kraftig økning i antall barn som tas hånd om av barnevernet” (Strong increase in the number of children being taken care of by Barnevernet).
http://www.nrk.no/norge/kraftig-okning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hand-om-av-barnevernet-1.12853764
It has increased with 52 per cent over 4 years. The basis is an official report. Of course Bufdir (the directorate managing Barnevernet) has no clear answers to why. (Hehe, I have!)
So Dagbladet has this heading:
“Barnevernet tar flere barn – men ingen vet hvorfor” (Barnevernet takes more children – but nobody knows why)
http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/03/15/nyheter/pluss/innenriks/barnevernet/barnevern/43515106/
and they add: “Ingen klare svar på økningen.” (No clear answers to why the increase),
but whereas many papers just repeat an official article from NTB (the official news agency), Dagbladet has apparently had their own reporter on the item and publish their own article, and they have therefore not made it accessible to non-subscribers.
Anyway, when they only ask Barnevernet, Bufdir and other authorities, it is no wonder that they get no plausible answers to why!
Some other papers with the same NTB article:
http://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/2016/03/15/195205568/kraftig-okning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hand-om-av-barnevernet
Bergen: http://www.bt.no/nyheter/innenriks/Kraftig-okning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hand-om-av-barnevernet-3561325.html
Ålesund: http://www.smp.no/ntb/innenriks/2016/03/15/Kraftig-økning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hånd-om-av-barnevernet-12280012.ece
Trondheim: http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/innenriks/2016/03/15/Kraftig-økning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hånd-om-av-barnevernet-12280006.ece
Oslo / country wide: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/barnevernet/flere-barn-tas-haand-om-av-barnevernet/a/23638580/
Tromsø: http://www.itromso.no/ntb/iriks/2016/03/15/Kraftig-økning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hånd-om-av-barnevernet-12280011.ece
Troms / Finnmark: http://www.framtidinord.no/ntb/innenriks/2016/03/15/Kraftig-økning-i-antall-barn-som-tas-hånd-om-av-barnevernet-12280008.ece
I toddled down to the shops in the sunny weather and bought Dagbladet. They had some statistics. It is all from the directorate Bufdir’s own publication, which is accessible on the internet. But it is still very useful that this is brought out in newspapers, so that a lot more people see it, because there are some interesting “revelations”.
The increase of 52% of NEW children happened between 2008 and 2012, then a slight decrease of 4% in 2013. At the end of 2014, 14,500 children and young, aged between 0 years and 22 years, were in CPS placed residence outside their home, 11,565 of them were under 18.
Bufdir says that they believe the increase may have come because more people are “aware of the necessity of reporting about children living under conditions which may harm their health and development, so that they get the necessary help and care”.
But Bufdir also says:
“Manglende foreldreferdigheter hyppigste årsak til tiltak.
Foreldrenes manglende foreldreferdigheter og andre forhold ved foreldrene og familien er de to hyppigste årsakene til at barn og unge kommer inn i barnevernet. Imidlertid er det ofte mer enn én årsak som gjør at barna mottar hjelp fra barnevernet.”
(Lack of parental proficiency the most common cause of assistance
Parents’ lack of parental proficiency and other factors about the parents and the family are the two most common reasons why children and young enter into Barnevernet. However, there is often more than one reason why the children receive assistance from Barnevernet.)
http://www.bufdir.no/Statistikk_og_analyse/Barnevern/
Bufdir has an English page, but I cannot find any report of this character on it.
So here we have it: “lack of proficient care ability” or some such formulation. Cf the description of the situation in central Bergen, in section “Seeing the CWS in practice” here:
Aage Simonsen: Norwegian child protection hits immigrants hard”
http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7035
(‘CWS’ means the same as ‘CPS’. ‘CWS’ stands for “Child Welfare Services”, the name official Norway has given the agency.)
What, then, became of the “very very rare cases where children are taken into care, extremely serious, mostly based on violence, sex abuse, substance abuse – and where is the period of long months and years of CPS help has had no improving effect on these serious causes? What about the standard answer that Bufdir otherwise gives out, that the Ministry gives out, that our embassies abroad are pleased to “enlighten” concerned foreigners with?
Thank you once again, Marianne. You have really done your research here. As there is propaganda in the American press, one would expect it there. Some of the Op Ed pieces in newspapers like USA Today are nothing more than propaganda.
the questions in the last paragraph of the entry above can be easily answered: Taking children from decent homes has had a huge effect on the “very rare cases” of homes where real problems need to be dealt with. Taking children from good homes has had a hugely negative effect on the society. The standard answer of Bufdir confuses foreigners instead of informing them of the dangers of the Norwegian CPS. You, thankfully, are helping us to understand.
“Barnevernet takes more children – but nobody knows why.”
Because Norway is such a materialistic society, my guess is that it is all about the money. Money is more important than a child’s welfare. Money is more important than a happy family. Money is more important than truth and justice. I am, of course, describing those who don’t care what CPS does and even supports them.
Chris, thank you for sticking with us and for supporting our fight against Barnevernet!
It is my pleasure, Chris. My plan is to stay with this until the end, whenever that may be. The best I can do now is to alert fellow believers about the problem and ask them to pray. As you know, we have our situations here as well.
Would it be possible to list the American cities where demonstrations will be taking place in April? If I am close enough, I will attend and would be happy to speak as I feel I know enough about the situation. I have thought about organizing some kind of peaceful protest here in Hot Springs and will speak to some pastors I know (the Romanian one I know has changed his phone number but I left a message on his church website). The problem is that most of the good pastors are booked already way into the summer with events that are also very important.
I would be happy to make my own protest but I don’t think the media would show up.
Thank you, Chris, for your praise. But it is undeserved in this instance! There was no research involved, just looking up Dagbladet and Bufdir’s webpage (the kind of activity the mainstream media often understands by “research”). What Aage Simonsen said in his article about 80 per cent of the takeovers of care being explained as the fear of FUTURE failure to care, was again based on simple counting when he served on the “client committee” in Bergen Central, BUT his bringing out figures at all was the result of actual research he did, of all sorts of aspects of Barnevernet’s activities and justifications, which Aage contrasted with facts he found in the scientific literature about the whole field.
There is a possible ambiguity in what Bufdir says. They say that most children are given “assistance” because of deficient parental ability to care. “Assistance” might mean aid, not only take-overs. Their expression that most children “kommer inn i barnevernet” (enter into Barnevernet) because of this, is also somewhat vague. In the context, however, it is reasonable to interpret “kommer inn i barnevernet” either as “being taken into the care of Barnevernet” or else to assume that the most frequent reason why children are brought into contact with Barnevernet at all is also the most frequent reason why some of them are taken into care. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if Bufdir again comes up with that no, the reason why they are taken into care is that there are very very serious deficiencies ….
Chris – as a christian one of the things that we get together with our faith is the access to the wisdom from above over activities on the earth and His guidance to what my/our part in our walking through life shall be. Every day we give to Him – and Him alone.
Marianne has never worked in a CPS office. She may have read some case files during the years and she had made up her opinion of the CPS based on that among other accesses that have substance in a movement against this municipal service. Marianne believes in her truth and is just in her assessments. This is truth for her and for the movement she is a part of, but it’s not the truth about the CPS as a whole system. A system may fail sometimes, but that is not the general rule.
Marianne mentions Åge Simonsen. He is a man at the same age as I – a biologist. He is a man with great scentific skill. His most important work is done about the centipede.
Åge is a memeber of Sosialistisk Venstreparti ( The Socialist Left Pary) where he has had several political enlistment. This party .- SV – have been the most progressive ambassador for the spirit of time. Åge is a memeber of this movement against the CPS in Norway – so is his brother – Jan – his twin brother – now for the most part blogging.
The 80% is in my opinion done by guessing – as most of his statements seems to be – they are not scientific nor accurate. “Rundt 80 prosent av barnevernets avgjørelser om å ta barn inn i omsorg var basert på diagnosen «mangelfull foreldreevne til å gi omsorg», slik at det kan forekomme en omsorgssvikt en eller annen gang i fremtiden. Bare i noen få tilfeller hadde det allerede forekommet dokumentert omsorgssvikt.” In my opinion he talks about “the taking over” – and that they are done for the most part on the d standard in the child welfare act – for sci.fi. effects of neglect – “(d) if it is highly probable that the child’s health or development may be seriously harmed because the parents are unable to take adequate responsibility for the child”. The d part alone as standard is only used when the parent(s) of obvious reasons – as f.i. mentally retarded – cannot cope with the daily care and upbringing. This standard is rarely used alone. The truth is that most of this cases are done on the a standard – “(a) if there ARE serious deficiencies in the daily care received by the child, or serious deficiencies in terms of the personal contact and security needed by a child of his or her age and development, This statement is used for present situations and in some cases there is made a link to the d as well.
Marianne,
Thank you again for sharing. If the man you have quoted is even close to being correct at 80% of the takeovers of care being explained as the fear of FUTURE failure, it is tragic. Even 10% would show the lack of wisdom in the CPS.
Knut,
I consider you as having a complete lack of wisdom after what you have written on this blog. You are playing the “Christian card” again.
I have made a decision, Chris. There will be a peaceful protest in Hot Springs, Arkansas on the 16th of April.
It will begin at 10:00 a.m. and will end officially around 2:00 p.m. Even if someone can spend 15 minutes with me that would be great. I will post the information on my blog and will talk to a few pastors.
We will meet on Central Avenue, by the water fountain. It is directly across from the Hot Springs National Park administration offices. Everyone here knows where that is.
I don’t expect a good turnout because of this late decision. However, I will try to get the word out to as many people as I can.
These articles are good news, indeed. I hope each paper has the quote about “nobody knows why.”
There is no need for Chris or others to worry about what Mr Knut Nygaard says about Åge Simonsen (or you may spell his first name Aage). Åge is quite correctly a biologist, his doctorate was on centipedes. He has statistics as one of his subjects. He is very capable of reading and assessing scientific literature and has done a lot of that concerning the biological as well as the statistical aspects of child protection. It is a long time since he was a member of the party SV; when he was appointed to the (politically composed) client committee in Bergen, it was the Progress Party who appointed him, because of his well-documented stance on CPS questions. Cf the epilogue (afterword) in his short book about the CPS (which was initially published by the Progress Party):
Håndbok for klientutvalg og barnevernsofre (Handbook for client committees and CPS victims)
1st edition 1996, new edition 2003
http://www.barnasrett.no/handbok.htm
Here a translation of ithe epilogue on the last page before the literature list:
“5. Epilogue
For a person with an academic education, trained in making scientific-theoretical and scientific-critical assessments and in logical thinking, reading case documents from CPS cases is lamentable business, where an abundance of arbitrary opinions, self-contradictions, unclear and imprecise language, faulty and invalid use of theory, illogical reasoning and a lack of counter-hypotheses are rather the rule than the exception.
I myself belong among the people who have through several years believed that Barnevernet take too few children. For years, not least as an active member in the Socialist Left Party, I have taken part in harassing, bullying and tell off CPS victims. The public propaganda has not been without an effect. Repeatedly it refers to how many children are “helped” by Barnevernet. That Barnevernet really helps some children (lawyers I have spoken to assess about 10 – 20 per cent of the takings into care to be rationally based), should not let us close our eyes to the serious abuse which Barnevernet commits. If one reads but a few CPS reports, one will quickly discover that something is seriously wrong in Norwegian Barnevern.
It is my hope that this booklet can contribute to remedying some of this, and to remedying the harm I myself have taken part in inflicting on other people.”
*
I have known Åge Simonsen from about 1995; we have worked together on some CPS cases, and we have been in court as expert witnesses in two of the same cases.
I figured as much, Marianne.
Once again Knut has tried to mislead us. This is something that Christians don’t do.
And where was the misleading, Chris? You noticed perhaps? – Marianne didn’t use a word on what I commented about this biologists possible observations done regarding to the use of § 4-12 d in the child welfare act. You talk with your Master sometimes, Chris – I don’t follow people and their thoughts – I follow Him – and Him alone.
From your own backyard: “Terrorim” of Child Welfare Systems to families to be addressed in Arkansas legislature.
http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/terrorism-of-child-welfare-system-to-families-to-be-addressed-in-arkansas-legislature/
So – Chris – look around – your close Child Protective Service want information especially about children in these situations:
Parents and caregivers who have support—from family, friends, neighbors, and their communities—are more likely to provide safe and healthy homes for their children. When parents lack this support or feel isolated, on the other hand, they may be more likely to make poor decisions that can lead to neglect or abuse.
Increasingly, concerned citizens and organizations are realizing that the best way to prevent child abuse is to help parents develop the skills and identify the resources they need to understand and meet their children’s emotional, physical, and developmental needs and protect their children from harm.
The following protective factors have been linked to a lower incidence of child abuse and neglect:
Nurturing and attachment. When parents and children have strong, warm feelings for one another, children develop trust that parents will provide what they need to thrive.
Knowledge of parenting and of child and youth development. Parents who understand how children grow and develop can provide an environment where children can live up to their potential.
Parental resilience. Parents who are emotionally resilient have a positive attitude, creatively problem solve, effectively address challenges, and are less likely to direct anger and frustration at their children.
Social connections. Trusted and caring family friends provide emotional support to parents by offering encouragement and assistance in facing the daily challenges of raising a family.
Concrete supports for parents. Parents need basic resources such as food, clothing, housing, transportation, and access to essential services that address family-specific needs (such as child care, health care, and mental health services) to ensure the health and well-being of their children.
Information provided by:
Child Abuse and Neglect
http://www.childwelfare.gov/can/
For more information on preventing child abuse, please contact your local DHS office or email Robbie Lake at Robbie.Lake@dhs.arkansas.gov
http://www.stoparchildabuse.com/
To me – you and others are the misled. If you were true activists – as Marianne, Rune, Åge and Jan – you would have stood on the barricades for the parents in your own backyard.
In a client committee one has access to all cases and the documents in them. It takes no great genious just to count the cases of the CPS taking children into care, count the types of justifications given, and conclude in how many per cent of the cases the alleged justification was a prediction of possible care failure in the future. It is also of importance that Åge found not a single instance of actual child abuse given as Barnevernet’s justification.
The client committee is outdated and historic. They were what we in Norway call “sand-på-strøere” – people who read papers they didn’t have knowledge to understand and for the most part just left through their fingers. In Bergen the client comittee went historic 01.01.03. It’s a municipal decission to have a client committee or not. In many small municipalities the CPS and NAV are close. In Naustdal f.i. the CPS has the NAV boss at the top of their service. Most cases for the client comitee came from the social welfare act and were about money given or not. The client comittee rarely read anything in the archives – they came from their daily work – sat down – nodded – and went home – duty done.
I can tell the reader that Åge Simonsen certainly read the documents, properly, and paid proper attention to their relation to other kinds of documentation also. The reader should consult the last section of the article mentioned before: “Seeing the CWS in practice”: http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7035
Whether client committees are outdated, as Mr Nygaard thinks, should be assessed by comparing that arrangement with what is now. The bad decisions of the CPS are as they were, and they are not stopped now any more than they were previously.
However, client committees have certainly not functioned well. Not for the members’ inability to “understand”, as Mr Nygaard thinks, but for their insufficient ethics – but this seems common in modern Norway: “leave it all to the authorities”. It is quite true that in at least some of the committees, the members did not read the case papers as they were obliged to do. The committee on which Åge Simonsen served was one of them. I have his full permission to tell DiT’s readers what went on: The other members very much disliked Åge because he DID read the papers. They did not even react when he pointed out straight lies told by the CPS, such as the one about the spot on a mother’s cheek, which the CPS called a black eye to stigmatise her home (again the last section in the afore-mentioned article). The leader of the client committee, a representative of the Christian People’s Party (Kristelig Folkeparti), did not want any examination of anything, he said, “We have to trust what the social services say”. Of course the committee didn’t want Åge to tell anybody what went on. They did not understand that the confidentiality clause is NOT there to protect the municipality or anyone serving on it, but only to protect the clients.
Another client committee, also i Bergen, was different. There they always called in the family concerned and asked them to tell everything about their side of the story. The social services didn’t like it.
Yes, the client committees had to do with money. For instance, a foster family in a case in Åge’s time was granted a good deal of money to build on to their house.
*
Mr Nygaard’s contention that such people as myself are behind times, is what we have heard again and again through the years, whenever someone criticises the CPS. Anybody who in the 1880s pointed out what Norway had done in the “child care” field between 1930 and 1970, was brushed off with a “That was then, it’s all different now”. In the 1990s, the CPS said it about cases from the 1880s, such as the infamous case of Adele Johansen, for which Norway was found guilty at the European Court of Human Rights. Our CPS and authorities, and not least the legal establishment, shouted their lungs off claiming that that was long ago (it was less than 10 years). Gradually, the municipal and state-managed compensation schemes for victims who have suffered abuse and neglect in CPS institutions AND in their private foster homes, have crept towards the present. Today, there are some municipalities that pay out such compensation for atrocities up to 2005.
Still we hear from CPS people, like from Mr Nygaard, that this is a whole new CPS we have today. It is a card they can always play, and they do. Were it only true. I actually wish that my knowledge of the field was outdated.
Mr Nygaard doesn’t seem to have updated information about Åge Simonsen, whom he criticises. Åge has not been a member of the Left Socialist Party since the early 1880s, while Nygaard thinks he still is. More important: We all, like Åge Simonsen, would do well to think seriously about how our basic views of politics, religion, society, other people, and so on, should be taken into account in what we do in specific instances in our life. There are actually some socialists, too, on the families’ side when the CPS ravages their lives.
“They did not even react when he pointed out straight lies told by the CPS.”
Let’s see…am I to believe Age or Knut? I don’t know Age well except from what Marianne has stated here, which makes him very credible. Knut on the other hand…
I think I rather stay in Norway – this seems not safe, Chris. You dare to go out today? Watch your back.
Impressive, Knut. You found an incident from Hot Springs, Arkansas on the internet and you think this incident will stop me from a peaceful protest. This event happened just down the street from where I plan my protest against your employer.
First, and I’ve asked this before, how do you have time to do this with 30 important family cases? You must be slacking on the job to spend time to do this kind of research. Either that or your 30 cases are being handled by someone else while you spend your work hours, at the government’s expense, spreading propaganda.
Second, I am on this street on foot at least once a week. It’s been that way for the past 20 years. I’ve never felt unsafe.
Third, if I felt it was unsafe the protest would still take place.
Fourth, I’ve been involved in protests before, one of which was monitored by local law enforcement. In other words, I was being watched so that all city laws were obeyed by the establishment I was protesting and by me. We had no problems.
Fifth, you should know by now that I am not concerned about what you think.
Sixth, I know our mayor and other well-known city personalities personally along with many who have protested and knocked on doors with me before. In other words, I have experience with this sort of thing.
Finally, you may take solace in this, Knut. As I have little time to organize, it will be a very small turnout. The good Christians I know are already doing as much as they can to try and change things here. I will ask them to come but I understand that God has a different ministry for each Christian and, as far as I know, only the people I have talked to in Hot Springs know about the problems in Norway.
If I had six months of time and could spend my days the way you do, I think I could get 200 or more to gather here in Hot Springs alone. If it ends up being just my son and me, I will be happy with that.
My “trip” to Hot Springs today was an educational break in a normal work day. Yeah – I think common Norwegians – not these chronic activists living in the past – have the same feeling as you have in your hometown – feeling safe and in harmony with the society. These examples wasn’t hard to find and yes – in my investigations I might find something by google.
You can get as many as you want to demonstrate, but it’s quite odd to demonstrate against something you all have in your own backyard. We can cope with that – it’s much more serious that you spend your time and efforts on something that’s not necessary – as christians we have all gotten one majoor task and that is to give to others what we have received ourselves.
Hot Springs was worth the “visit”.
Your mean comment about the city where I spend a lot of time doesn’t surprise me, Knut.
Although I will feel physically safe, perhaps incorrectly, I know about the real battle going on no matter where a Christian is in the world.
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Eph. 6:12
By the way, I will have my “sword” with me.
I have worked alongside local DHS workers and mistakes and lack of judgment occurs occasionally. However, what I have read on this blog about the events in Norway are MUCH worse than anything here. If we can educate the American public about the dangers happening in Norway, maybe the problem will never get as bad here, and maybe, just maybe Americans can have an impact there.
You think this is bad, Knut? Some kids going to jail for resisting arrest? What about having your children taken from you for no good reason whatsoever? What about having your children separated into different foster homes? What about the children who were taken turning up with bruises and scratches during visitations. If you think this is brutality then what do you call the abuses of your employer? This officer was outnumbered by a bunch of unruly and mouthy teens who had violated the law. Did you notice the police backup and hear the siren coming at the end?
You would have done much better to find a video of a crack house in the Hot Springs area. We have had to take children from those homes because of drug issues. We remove children from their homes for valid reasons here (in the vast majority of cases).
Chris: “We remove children from their homes for valid reasons here (in the vast majority of cases).”
The most important thing is that Norwegian CPS often SAY that yes, everyone can make mistakes, but they BACK UP their mistakes. They isolate the children, the children are not allowed to communicate freely with their parents nor to go back even if there has CLEARLY been a mistake.
That is the way the CPS keeps its power, but covering up, preventing people from fighting back openly, scaring and pressuring the children. This is normally called slavery. They call it “protection”.
Thanks, Marianne.
So, “protection” means isolation and maltreatment without representation.
It is now 2 o’clock in the afternoon here, on a workday. I would think Mr Nygaard, who works in the CPS and who wrote some time ago that he was not on sick-leave any more and would therefore not have much time for writing on the internet, would probably be working. But never mind, perhaps defending the CPS is this way really IS his work that he is paid for.
He writes: “Parents and caregivers who have support—from family, friends, neighbors, and their communities—are more likely to provide safe and healthy homes for their children.”
And true enough that the CPS counts “a small network” as a suspicious factor among the “predictors” of future care failure and possibly abuse. Actually, Aage Simonsen’s article which he wrote for the Pravasi Magazine, has a good description of the way the CPS uses such “predictors”, see the section “Risk indicators”:
http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7035
We are well acquainted with CPS prediction from the CPS writings of Kari Killén and others. They tend to fail abysmally, EXCEPT when the CPS pushes people into a kind of situation which they themselves then count as a risk indicator. Of course, when they take the children, any possibility of finding out whether there would actually have been abuse by the parents, is taken away.
This is the way the CPS people relate to prediction: they say that a rich network is a boon, but when there IS such a network, the CPS takes care to exclude them: grandparents, other relatives, good friends, who are all willing to help, are forced out and denied the possibility of helping with anything, parents are even forced to separate and divorce. There are very many documented cases of such isolating activity on the part of the CPS. In Aage Simonsen’s words: “.. reading case documents from CPS cases is lamentable business, where an abundance of arbitrary opinions, self-contradictions, unclear and imprecise language, faulty and invalid use of theory, illogical reasoning and a lack of counter-hypotheses are rather the rule than the exception.”
So, it doesn’t really add up, does it – or perhaps we might say that add up is exactly what it does.
Both you and Åge are not updated. You live in the past. The CPS is in change. F.i. the level for CPS introduction. I have now worked in the same city for 22 years. In the 1990 the level was low. A mother could sit on a bench rolling a joint – be picked upon the police and if she had a child the CPS got a concern. The child was not involved in the situation. In this period – that lasted to around 1997 we in the CPS met all kinds of people – many of them quite ordinary. We did our investigations – sometimes just one conversation – and we in the CPS noticed that being called to us was a wake up call for a lot of parents. They cried and said this shall never happen again – and for most of them – we never saw them again. I’m sure that this one conversation was the measure that was enough for them.
From 1997 the level went higher – and in 2014 our office received 475 concerns. Around 100 cases were dismissed. In around 150 of the cases the parents didn’t say “yes” to the measures we proposed. Aroud 20 cases were so serious so the were dismissed with concern – this means that we can reopen them six months ahead without the necessity of a received measure from the outside.
Now the law is altered so that we can impose measures in those investigations done where the parents earlier could be heard on what they thought about the measures. We are now in a situation where the level is the same, but we are given more power to impose measures the parents don’t agree to.
Chris, about a demonstration in Hot Springs, Arkansas:
Excellent idea. I admire so much those places in Europe, too, where there have been even just a dozen demonstrators. Everything has to start somewhere and somehow. Where there are few demonstrators, you can be sure that they have some stamina and knowledge. (Remember one occasion when there were only 12, dwindling to 11, and they tended to run away, and they didn’t make themselves out to be more courageous than they were, and they didn’t quite know how to go about spreading the incredible message …. ! ) Anyone who joins you will be one more person who takes an interest and can spread information further.
A suggestion: In addition to a suitable quote from the Bible, how about writing on a poster: “Read on Delight in Truth, http://delightintruth.com“.
There is a grandfather here, the grandfather of two children they managed to save by resolutely taking them and their mother abroad to stay abroad for several years – a huge success in every way. The children had fine schooling there and became proficient in a much more useful language than Norwegian, in addition to English. At home here, the grandfather often drove around the local district, putting up a notice on telephone poles and other places where it is allowed. The notice summarised “Alvheim’s 10 commandments for people in touch with the CPS” (John Alvheim was a parliament member who was a genuine Christian, it was not done as a parody or anything), and then the text: “Read on BarnasRett.no”.
Among other places, he usually chose a telephone pole on the opposite side of the road from the local CPS office. This no doubt irritated the CPS people and they regularly tore the poster down, but he just calmly put up a new one. He also put them on the notice board at the ferry quay – on the west coast here, there are lots and lots of ferries across the fjords, and lots of traffic on the quays, cars waiting for the next ferry. We know that several people read on BarnasRett.no as a result.
– It rains a lot on the west coast of Norway, so this grandfather bought plastic covers for the notices, and he said laughingly to me: “I am considering investing in plexiglass which cannot be smashed, bolting the notices to the notice boards or the telephone poles!” It does us good to have some humour in all this.
Excellent idea, Marianne.
Many have internet on their phones and can check out Delight’s blog right then and there if they so wish.
I’ve protested in the rain on the same street where I am planning this. I will be praying for sunshine, however, as I will be able to talk to so many more people if the weather is nice. It’s interesting how many people will gather to hear someone who is passionate about something.
I’m sure there will be more protests and other opportunities if it does rain but I will be there in spite of the weather.
There is one thing I would like to have. I would like to have an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of factual material about the situation in Norway. Preferably it would be printed so that it could be tri-folded. A two-sided trifold would be great. Anyone who knows how to do this knows I would need two separate sheets sent to me so that I do a front/back copy. I would only need one copy of each sheet emailed to me and I would have copies made to hand out.
If no one feels led to do this, I will make one myself. If someone does a really good job, this could be used in any English speaking area.
If anyone is willing to design such a “tract,” I would make sure it gets into the hands of those who will read it.
Marianne, would you read such an effort before I give it out to make sure all of the information is correct? I really don’t want you trying to design it as you have your hands full at the moment.
Btw…once I have permission for this protest from the city, I will post the information to all of my Facebook friends.
Marianne does not have the right information, Chris. She has a “library” where she have collected information and “information” about the CPS – some true, but for the most part oneyed – some true, but outdated – some true, but mixed with pure propaganda exaggerations so it ends up as fiction a.s.o.. When you visit a library you find an exhibition of the new books – Marianne does not have the new stuff – she’s a woman living in her archive – in the past.
You end up standing as a spokesman for something you might think is the truth and is real, but it’s not. My wife tells me over and over again – speak with Him – get to know what is on his heart before this or that. That is a good advise – I think.
I don’t think anyone is “listening” to you here anymore, Knut. I certainly am not. I did read enough of your comment to understand that you think Marianne is living in the past. It is you who are the medieval one.
Certainly I’d be glad to read through, Chris. There are some friends here that I can ask to look at it as well.
“There is one thing I would like to have. I would like to have an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of factual material about the situation in Norway.”
Yes, having a hand-out is almost essential when the people who walk past know nothing of the issue beforehand.
Of course you must also put “Read on DiT” on the hand-out. Likewise, if you put on the hand-out concrete things about the situation in Norway, it would be good if you could give a link to say a small article about each. For instance, you might link to an article in the Armonia magazine illustrating a particular point, and so on. But try to find articles from DIFFERENT sources, so that people understand that there is not only one group of people who have brushed up against this or have taken an interest.
You should definitely include a link or links to something from the previous demonstrations, and say “This is what we would like to work towards in Arkansas also!” I try to keep up a thread, in Norwegian but also a parallel one in English, about the various demonstrations: http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=8126 (the newest come last on that forum), but it may not be entirely suitable; I think you want something which shows better that several places in America are already active. That makes Americans see that other Americans think it concerns them.
All excellent suggestions, Marianne. Would you have the time to pick out a few links in English that would be good? If you can find six links for me on concrete items in Norway, I would be appreciative. I would like one that has a story about how an atheist has been affected by this horrible system. I will find the links that depict the protests in America and I will definitely put Delight’s blog on it.
My demonstration has been approved by the local authorities and the police have been contacted. The small (but hopefully powerful) Hot Springs demonstration is being planned.
Chris, as you said yourself, I have many things on my hands just now. I seem to be dead tired every day. Try first for yourself, please, at least to find some points you would like to make. Then try to find links on American sites. I will also keep it in mind and mail you if I come across something suitable while I am doing other things.
Use my ordinary mail address and give your own so that I can mail you without trouble. My mail is quite open, you find it on my home page.
No problem, Marianne. I’ve got it covered. I will do my best and send you a copy when I am done so that you can check it out.
Mr. Delight in Truth has also a backyard – a nice one – and a long time ago I wished to move to this area. But also in paradise things happen – some examples:
https://books.google.no/books?id=98GdAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=newport+beach+child+protective+service&source=bl&ots=tOCmwRSqgO&sig=JcT1mQmH525U_5rAeYPluc91Mdc&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz49Cp0cXLAhUDmHIKHaGxCeU4FBDoAQgaMAA#v=onepage&q=newport%20beach%20child%20protective%20service&f=false
http://wtkr.com/2013/10/25/newport-news-father-arrested-for-child-abuse/ – ok, maybe we too shall show the abusers on tv – maybe that is preventive?
http://www.newportacademy.com/child-neglect-cases-often-linked-to-parental-addiction/
http://blog.angry-dad.com/2013/12/mom-loses-child-to-cps-while-shopping.html
Click to access Limits%20of%20Confidentiality.pdf
Much the same as in Norway – you too have been misled by this one case and these chronic CPS-haters.
Knut, you see the article? It talks about addiction! We are not arguing about LEGITIMATE reasons for acute interventions. Drugs and alcoholism, physical danger, etc for the children are legitimate reasons to step in and protect children, until the problem is resolved. Most of the time those children can be placed with grandparents or relatives.
Can you see the difference, Knut?
No – it’s just the same as in Norway – but I think there is not much addiction in Naustdal – much nature and few inhabitants – 2700 – 27 concerns i 2014 and something tells me that few – or none were emergency ones – you tend to be selective Mr. Prunean – that is a clear indicator that you have stepped into the activist arena you too.
Yes, I am an activist. A Christian activist to be exact, pointing out the abuse against Bodnariu. I am pointing out the TRIVIAL MATTERS for which BV confiscates children.
I – as you – hope for the best for this Naustdal case. As I have said a couple of times – from the outside looking in – and read the “berserk” file – I strongly feel that the family would have had another solution weeks – months ago – if done in our surroundings – but I don’t know all the details – neither to you.
Cristina Nicoli, Australia has made a flyer just like that about the norwegian situation, ready to fill in place and time. I thought “everybody” knew.
I didn’t know, Hege. How can I get a copy of it? It would be particularly helpful if I could get it online as it would be easier to work with. Hopefully, Cristina already has it somewhere on the internet so that anyone could reprint it.
Chris, I will try to email you some fliers! Thank you!
That would be great, Chris. And thank you, too!
Got them and they will work well. Thanks again.
Here in Norway one of the speakers to the Oslo demonstration Jan Aage Torp has been in the Nrk tvstudio and seen his son – 27 year old Anders – for the first time since January 2014.
When Anders was 19 he stepped out and against his father an accused him for the radical christian upbringing with exorcism, sin, hell and religious duties. Anders have now written a book where he take a showdown for the years he now sees as fare over the edge for what a father shall impose on a son.
I think the organizers of the demonstration in Oslo should get Torp off the arrangement – in these following days he has no image in the common Norwegian of been a good father. Here from the meeting between father and son on our national TV today.
http://www.nrk.no/norge/sterkt-mote-mellom-far-og-sonn-torp-1.12860506
It sounds like Mr. Torp is just the man for the job. When young people make accusations like these in our day, how do we know they are true? Quite often I have young people in America look me right in the eyes and lie. Speaking lies has become the art of the 21st century. I wonder how much money Anders was offered to write his book? Making these allegations when he was 19 raises a red flag. When I was 19, I was paying rent, had a job and a car that I paid for myself, and would never disrespect my parents. The organizers of this event would not allow Mr. Torp to speak if he had abused his child. I don’t believe a word you say, Knut.
There is a backlash against Torp because he is a charismatic.
AND because he has spoken out against Barnevernet, no doubt.
Interesting, Chris.
I don’t know much about charismatics in Norway. If the post you put here containing Mr. Torp’s speech is any indication of Norwegian charismatics, then more charisma of his kind is needed in his country.
I disagree with many of the things happening in certain charismatic churches in America. I think I would agree with many charismatics, however, on the essentials of the Christian faith.
Do you know which denomination to which the Bodnarius belong?
The Bodnarius are pentecostalists.
About Torp’s “image” – I don’t think anyone is going to let Mr Nygaard decide who has any kind of “image” with the average Norwegian. Barnevernet has an “image” with them, and that is what Nygaard wants to promote. The demonstrators do not. Likely Nygaard would like to mastermind the demonstration himself! Just like our government and embassies, which think our Barnevern just has “an information problem”. To prevent people, in Norway and abroad, being “misinformed” about lovely Barnevernet!
Official Norway, and people like Nygaard, always tend to think that CPS opposition is mysterious and must be due to “other things” – that we are either covert nei-Nazis, or out-groups of some sort.
About out-groups: a popular accusation against “us” is that we are in favour of child abuse, that we even are child-abusers ourselves, and that any opposition to Barnevernet invading people’s lives on a 24/7 basis is because “we” want to abuse our children in peace.
Is it an effective propaganda devise, that you “want to abuse our (your) children in peace?”
I have really no idea HOW effective, but certainly SOME people think that anyone who accuses the CPS of destroying family life is a very suspect person. I have seen a couple of concrete examples, and heard of more, of people who have refused to have the CPS in their home on a regular basis to “observe” the family, and where the CPS has actually written in the documents: “They will not allow us full insight into their life and therefore give us reason to suspect that they have something to hide.”
The CPS also loves to dig into people’s sex life, and again, if the victims will not go along with that, it is used against them as parents.
Maybe they will propose cameras in every bedroom soon.
Of course, Marianne. If I had arranged this …. I probably have dwelled in the present and in the future – and given much response to the new CPS in Norway that is set for being implemented in the whole nation around 2020.
She gives more power and responsiblility to the municipal CPS. In Norway most of the children attend kindergarden from the age of 1. In this way most children are in the view zone for observation. Kindergarden have previous been slow to send concerns, This has changed. We have a close cooperate work arena and the level for sending a concern or not are often the issue. The goal is to help families earlier on a lower level of concern with more power to impose help measures, In this way we hope there will be less necessary to take the care for children. By moving the responibility for fosterhomes over to the municipal CPS the thinking is that we know more about family and friends – neighbours – known for the child people that can be considered as forsterparents. The CPS will be less dangerous as a more whole municipal service and Horne hope the newciomers will be less afraid. Many muslims avoid our welfare help institutions and kindergarden because they are afraind. This reform will take years to implement – around 2020 Horne think the reform is performed in every municipality. The state shall no longer have the responsibility for the fosterhomes and more the municipalities will thus get more money. More imortant than money is efforts to be done to rise the compentence. This together, we hope, will make, the CPS more predictable and more a cooperative part in the work for the best for families and the children in a municipal context.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Ny-barnevernsreform-skal-gi-barn-og-familier-tidligere-hjelp-8397400.html?xtatc=INT-55-%5B6
As I have said a couple of times – the CPS changes all the time – and it’s not because of you – it comes out of scientific research and work done in appointed specialist groups.
I have defended Torp in several discussions where faith is the subject, but I see – from the Bodnariu point of view that he in person has done all the wrongs that also they as parents could be doing to their children. He is divorced. A father of six children where I hear all more or less suffer from an upbring that ends in a split family – for the siblings too. I have understood the Romenians as defenders of family – this is – I’m sorry to say – an example of a family where the most has been done wrong and is wrong today.
You are a fount of information, Knut.
“In Norway most of the children attend kindergarden from the age of 1.”
So, a corrupt government system is already “testing” families for “good” (vulnerable) candidates in kindergarten?
The kindergarden “industry” is a finished project. Now almost every child attends kindergarden from the age of 1. If you have a child born after 01.09 they won’t be priorited this year.
In Norway there has been impossible for common people to live on one salery since the 1970’s. The level for attending a kindergarden at that time was usually 3 – some at 6 – as a preschool year.
Now the children begin in kindergarden at the age of 1 – spends more time during a week in kindergarden than with their family in an awake condition – and begin in school at the age of 6. This of cause give the state a good surveillance of the children and those who need some kind of help will be given it on an early stage.
The reason for this low kindergarden permiere is our high house and appartment costs. A family pay around kr. 10-120000 in housing costs a month.
I don’t know how that amount shakes out in percentage of income but it has been similar here in America for years. There are hard choices to make. Do you want to live in a smaller place and drive an old car so that your wife may stay home with the children until they reach school age? It was still a possibility when I raised my children and I know of people who are making the same choice now.
Thank God we don’t have kindergarten at 1 here in the states. If the government offered it for free, some stay-at-home mothers would be tempted to enter the workforce. I think a child needs the nurturing of the mother for at least the first several years so that proper care and a lifelong connection is undertaken and created.
Also, the jobs being created in the US now are mostly low wage jobs that would hardly pay for daycare anyway.
The “project” may be finished but only because parents have their children in school by the age of 1. The child is away from his parent(s) for most of their awake time, I think this puts a child at a disadvantage when it comes to having a good family of their own someday.
None of us are perfect. All of us do wrong. Jan Aage Torp has admitted the wrong he has done and deeply regrets it. It is not an easy situation for Torp when his own son, who sadly has turned away from God,tells the world about his fathers wrongdoings. I look up to Torp for what he does. Instead of trying to defend himself, Torp listens to, respects and defends his son. He humbles himself and shows that he is sorry.
This is the right attitude and what the Lord delights in. God is a Father full of grace and mercy. Though people around are unforgiven and bitter, He forgives those who regret and turn themselves to God for forgiveness. As written in the following passage from James; 4: 6-10;
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
We are soon approaching Easter where we celebrate the greatest gift God has given to mankind;
“For God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent His Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through Him” John 3:16-17
Jesus Christ died for our sins. This is the greatest love! And He rose again and lives! Yes, He lives!!!!! He is the way, the truth and LIFE!!!!!
Great verses, Hildi! Some of my favorites. The verse about God resisting the proud occurs more than once in the Bible.
I hear from a friend of Jan-Aage Torp that he: 1) forbade his son to watch porn, a very strict prohibition indeed and no doubt traumatising to the son; 2) said he should not go with a girl before he was 18 – – well, who knows?; 3) forbade him to drink alchohol – now drinking alchohol before 18 is illegal now anyway, and certainly “aiding and abetting” is, so why this was so extraordinarily strict of the father is perhaps a mystery, although the law itself may certainly “traumatise” many.
“Torp seems the man for the job” may be right! Anyway, to go for a “comrade court” of “virtue” to decide who is fit to have their children with them or fit to speak on behalf of all the world’s IMperfect families’, is less than sensible.
Another good word from you, Marianne.
Any Christian would instruct his/her child in the same way. I still find it odd that a 19 year old was able to report on his father. If this is true, why can’t a 30 year old report “sins of the past” to BV?
About alcohol, no, Chris. Only in some groups in Scandinavia is alcohol thought of as sinful. Many are more “continental” in their habits, wine is a more regular part of a good meal or a party. I don’t really know when the law became as strict, or as strictly enforced, as it seems to be now. Certainly I had a glass of wine at celebrations etc from I was quite young, and my mother made home-made wines. One young girl (but that would be thirty years ago) was offered wine at a party at a friend’s house, and said, “Oh no no, I only drink when father pours.”
But regardless of moderate alcoholic habits, it is this dramatising business of Torp’s son, and even more the way the “official culture” treats it, like these media people giving him prime time on the tv news, which is just ridiculous. It’s one more symptom: “We must listen to the children”, “We must believe the children” – regardless. And even put words into their mouths. As angry people said when CPS-related and kindergarten circles had caused the Bjugn case: “To get a bunch of kindergarten kids to ruin a whole community!”
Interesting, Marianne.
Jesus turned water into wine so I wine is ok in God’s eyes. However, the Bible warns against drunkenness. In fact in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 states:
9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
If one looks at the ministry of Jesus, these were types of people that Jesus ministered to and cares about. Jesus died for all sinners so that we can be washed as the verse says.
I don’t drink alcohol as I never acquired the taste for it. However, if I am ever offered a glass of wine I will try it. If it is good enough for Jesus to make, it’s good enough for me.
Again – Marianne – you lack knowledge and take also this Torp family into a “common” context. Chris, Mr. Truth and Hilde knows what we are talking about – a family sharing the same faith and everything seems all right until – the child – as in the Bodnariu case understands the differencies between their – the girls – upbring and the others in the municipality.
It’s when this understandig starts the child to ask questions either heard or just on the inside because the child understand what the father will answer anyway.
How will the situation for this particular child be if hen says it will be home and no longer attend chuch – begin to listen to common music – get friends that are not christian a.s.o. ?
Anders was a part of this and tell f.i. a story about prayer and fasting for 21 days in his early teenage. He tells stories of exorcism done by africans that the father had been himself down in Africa – taking them to Norway so they can learn Norwegians how to cope with demons.
For many prior radical christians their time as believers become black as they turn their back to their earlier belief. Anders was taken under the human ethic wings of Levi Fragell – almost as an “adoptive” father and has fought against both Christianity and his father for years. This story and fight is wll known in the media and among common people.
Marianne may answer for herself but please don’t speak for me, Knut.
You are using the “Christian card” again.
And if you don’t believe in demons, you obviously haven’t read your Bible.
Did you say you were a Christian?
Well, Chris, alcohol is certainly on the unhealthy side of edibles, whatever some say about the positive effect on I don’t remember what. I also think it very impolite if someone offers you wine and you say no thank you, then to try and push it on you or to be offended at the “no thank you”.
I quite like wines but they don’t like me; the older I get, the less pleasant the effect after the first half-hour (while the alcohol content is going up), and it is absolutely no good for my migraine!
You need to listen to your body, Marianne, as you are doing.
I’ve heard the opposite, that a little wine is actually good for you. But then the “experts” say one day that eggs are good for you and the next day they change
their minds and eggs are bad for you.
The “experts” are like the BV.
I was given a glass wine at a Christian gathering years ago. It was with a group of Christian teachers. I declined it and no one pressured me to drink it. I, like you, think it would have been very rude for someone to try and push it on me.
I cannot see that it was a big problem that Torp gave his children a too strict upbringing. My goodness! Aren`t parents allowed to set limits to what their children are allowed to or not? Some parents are stricter than other parents. But it seems to me that parents are not allowed to give any restrictions to their children anymore… In my opinion, I don`t think it is a good idea to let our children do everything as it pleases them…..
The real problem was where Torp`s son was led into some extreme, unhealthy and unbiblical exorsicm led by a group from Africa which came to their church . And also when he went to a camp where he had to do things that were not good and also based on wrong teaching. J.A.Torp realised later that this was wrong and harmful. He regretted that he had led his son into this and also explained the wrong teaching, which he has distanced himself from now. Torp also apologized for not being the father he ought to have been and not met his son`s needs.
No parents are exactly alike. It would be dictatorship if the state decided exactly, in every detail, how they were to bring up their children. Times also change and the way we perceive child upbringing changes. We have also got other challenges now than twenty-thirty years ago with media for instance.
As a Christian, it is important for me and my husband, who both agree on most principles and values, to explain to our children why we want them to refrain from certain things which we believe could harm them. For instance, we have explained to them why we believe it is best to wait with sex till marriage. We have also explained how harmful it is to watch porn or violence, and why it is not good to consume drugs or get drunk. At the same time we have upheld things that are good and tried to convey that one can have lots of fun without getting into bad things.
When our children were younger, we had to look more after them. As they grew older, they were given more and more freedom to make their own choices. It is not always easy to know exactly which limits to set and we have probably also made our mistakes.
Secular values will always be in conflict with Christian values. Cultures are also different. Even between Switzerland, where I live, and Norway there are differences. For instance in how Christians look at alcohol. Here it is common for Christians to drink alcohol in moderation. I also occasionally take a glass of wine here where I live. But when I am in Norway I do not drink alcohol because I do not want to be a stumbling block for anyone. Alcoholism is a great problem in Norway. People drink too much when they drink and get drunk. The drinking mentality is different.
Also the way Norwegians and Swiss think about Kindergarden is different. I am a very family orientated mom. I love children and homemaking. I have been a home-stay mother ever since I started having children and feel really privileged that finances and everything has allowed me to stay home.Here where I live in Bernese Oberland, at least, mothers in general think it is not a good idea to place their children too early in Kindergarden or other child care facilities. Of course there are also different opinions on that. But the majority say they want to stay away from letting the state influence their children too soon. They want to give their children a good foundation with their own family values and also give them love and a sense of security at home before they are sent out into “the system”.
It is quite the opposite in Norway…. Every time I go to visit Norway I dread the same thing; Being asked what I do. When the kids were little, it was taken for granted that they were 100% in some child care facility and I went 100% working. When I told the Norwegians that I was a home stay mother, and that the children went to some play groups etc but didn`t go to kindergarden until they were 4 or 5, they couldn`t believe that that was possible. Some even stated that that was not good for the children and that I wasn`t qualified to take care of my own children since I wasn`t a kindergarden teacher.I was then always glad to be back home again in Switzerland where I was honoured being a stay home mother and where being there for my husband and children was looked upon as a virtue.
I must add that I in no way have missed out on anything. I did lots of things which I could integrate into my family role when the kids were little like teaching English for kids a couple of times a week. We had great fun:-) I also took different courses. I have been privileged to have had time for my greatest passions which are singing and songwriting and am soon giving out my first CD. I am truly grateful!
Your family sounds a lot like mine, Hildi.
I am really getting an education here about different countries. Thank you.
“The real problem was where Torp`s son was led into some extreme, unhealthy and unbiblical exorsicm led by a group from Africa which came to their church . And also when he went to a camp where he had to do things that were not good and also based on wrong teaching.”
It sounds like Mr. Torp thought his son had a demon in him. I’m not trying to plug my blog but I recently posted something about demons and a Christian who went to Africa. I think his research was balanced.
There are, of course, all kinds of “exorcisms” being done by many quacks who spread false doctrine. It sounds like this is what happened in Mr. Torp’s case. Whenever the Bible is not the main focus of our beliefs, we can be led astray.
“Torp also apologized for not being the father he ought to have been and not met his son`s needs.”
What more can a man do?
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