This issue first came to light in the Bodnariu case where nosy teachers and social workers pressed the Bodnariu girls on theological issues taught in their family. Issues regarding sin, and God’s punishment of it. Based on the girls’ answers, CPS further probed them with leading questions which led to a 6 month confiscation ordeal. Religious matters were definitely a factor in this case, in a country that touts freedom of religion.
As we study more cases in Norway we gather more troubling findings.
The official religion in Norway is Protestant Christianity which practices infant baptism. We have received reports of Barnevernet preventing confiscated children from being baptised. Infant baptism is a central doctrine in traditional Protestantism and it is restricted in Norway when Barnevernet gets involved.
Delight in Truth has obtained proof of this. The above logo is taken directly from a letter of baptism denial to a family who wished to have their child baptised. Here are some excerpts from said letter dated from 2015:
“… since the care situation is under judicial consideration, the future care situation is not clear. If there is to be a baptism carried out now, there will be a need for the interim foster parents to be present, and there will be monitoring carried out by the Child Protection Service. We have discussed the case, and recommend that the baptism of [***] be postponed until the case is finally decided in the courts, and the care situation has been clarified.
….The Child Protection Service therefore finds it difficult to facilitate a baptismal ceremony on […], 2015.
This is in effect a denial of standard religious practice. Just like the Bodnariu family was sanctioned for using the Bible as their ultimate guide for their life.
This is effective in a country where the Christian cross is pasted on its flag.
Maybe Barnevernet ought to recommend removal of the cross from the Norwegian flag.
Delight in Truth 
Children can be baptised at any age in the Norwegian Lutheran church, but it is absolutely most usual for people belonging to the church to have their children baptised as babies.
If this child is with interim foster parents (i.e. with “parents” in a temporary foster home, “beredskapsforeldre”), and if at the same time this is a baby, not an older child, then the case is most likely still to be processed in the County Committee, not later in the District Court or the Appeal Court.
If so, it may take several years before the case is settled “finally”, although Barnevernet of course wants a decision in their favour in the County Committee to be “final”.
It sounds unlikely that they would be any more willing to let the family have any say later if the child is then still in CPS care. They would not at all like any ceremony where 40 people, friends and family, were present together with foster parents and themselves as black angels. They would avoid, if they could, having to run the gantlet in that way, and of course they would not let the family and friends have the child alone, since that would mean the child could be helped to escape.
Trouble with reading – Mr. Prunean – you should know what “postponed” means? It’s not a crisis – just a practical message – the situation for the child is not clarified – and therefore – who shall be present during the cermony.
This was the most foolish of all your post so far, Mr. Prunean. Your drawe seems empty now – not much to fuel up the few readers of this blog with.
1. Postponal seems to be already an interference into freedom.
2. However it is not clear for me who initiated baptism. Interim foster parents to be present? Sounds like the biological parents want to have baptism… I guess they are still legal guardians of the children, and this at first sight seems to be unnecessary intereference from the Norwegian State into human rights in a democratic society, in the light of European Convention of Human Rights.
3. Barnevernet seems to be very eager to practice power. Just like authorities in Eastern Europe in the communist era.
There are interim foster parents, so I guess there is an emergency care order — that seems not so difficult to facilitate. And after that, things are not urgent for Barnevernet again. Double standards?
(It would help if laws made it urgent for Barnevernet to proceed, otherwise emergency care order to be lapsed. Otherwise this inhuman tactics of seizing the children and then playing for prolonging procedures could cause huge harms for the children).
4. A little more details of the case could be helpful, there is mininal direct information available, and hard to guess the facts out of short comments in the letter.
Mr. Nygaard.
We do appreciate all of the hard work which Delight in Truth is putting into this Blog.You do not understand how strangers from all over the word can feel the pain for other fellow humans that we never met.You are just a robot doing what you have been programmed to do and that is to serve the one who has programmed you to function a certain way.
We will continue to do what is in our power, in praying and suffering with the victims of Barnevernet.
I know that you are tired by now, you have tried hard to influence some of us into believing that the Barnevernet Beast is not really that bad.Sometime I could not, but just laugh at your comments.
We do rely on our Lord Jesus Christ for our inspiration and leadership.
I know you don’t believe this and think that we are all some activists.
I’ve been called other names before, here I have a chance to add another title to my name.
Glory be to our Lord .
Knit picky here, Knut.
I am beginning to hear of more and more of these cases.
Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Matthew 7:3
Notice my conclusion: effectively, this is a denial of baptism. Delay tactic is a BV’s most abused method. This kid will not get thir baptism unless returned to the family. The chance of return is very slim according to overall statistics. That’s why the letter states that the future is unclear.
I chequed this with my colleagues working in the care for field and they told my that the parents wish rules the ground for what kind of religious rituals they wish for their child. The border for religious ritual freedom is with physical harm and if there is conflict of interest between the child and the parents.
It’s where the future juridical situation for the child is unclarified the CPS consider that to be settled first before the planning of the baptism. There is no dramatic in that consideration.
In Norway there is a no one that in the public services consider baptims done in the first living year as somthing they be their job position try to prevent. It’s a national ritual done in church and is one of the few times in life the family and relatives enter that building.
The problem with Christian faith in a secular society is when you or a member of the family tell others that Jesus (alone) is the way – the truth and the life – that someone might react because you then tell that only your belief is the right one and all the others are ?? In an direct or indirect way you disrespect other members of the society.
I have just one question here… Have this secular society declared to respect freedom of religion? (By its Constitution and by its international commitments).
This secular society seems to disrespect its own laws in a very direct way.
Well Knut, you are deflecting the direction of our conversation. Jesus as the only way to the Father is part of the gospel which we preach. The audience has the right to refuse the gospel.
1. While the biological parents are the legal guardians of the child, they should decided life/death matters or religious rituals like dedication, baptism, etc regardless of care status. That is a basic human right that needs to be respected.
2. This whole uncertainty that BV casts over the process is just more evidence that reunification is NOT a goal in these cases. We know that a very low percentage (less than 10%, maybe as low as 4% according to Reikeras) of CPS children are reunified with their biological families in Norway.
Hmm… during the years I so far have lived there is three professions that have lost both power and general respect in the society – that is the teacher, the priest and the police.
I don’t know where you live Jasper, but in Norway as in the USA more and more people find church going or participating in a congregation not to be their priority. The nation by their regulations and law give all religions egual rights. Education has the last 50 years been based on a principle of giving knowledge about religions as a whole with less an less priority on the Christianithy.
In Norway many people turn their religious need to search the occult and new age area – as our Princess Martha Louise who are the co-owner of “The Angel School”
http://forskning.no/alternativ-behandling-religion-psykologi/2008/02/older-age
As Jesus and bible stories are less and less heard in the Norwegian school f.i. Mindfulness has it’s promotors and are on the way in – also my office have been visited by this insentive and most of the members accepted the invitation and got influenced to something that was much like hypnosis. Here is one of the promotors speaking about the ongoing insentive
And then we have the muslims that need a muslim society to live in to be in the islamic context. Norway is now beginning to challenge the muslims like done is this interview I’m not sure those of you outside Norway can watch – shall women be considered subordinated to men? – Fahad Qureshi is the leader of Islam net and Audun Lysbakken is the leader of the still few socialists in Norway
https://www.nrk.no/video/PS*269862
Baptims has nothing to do with reunification or not. 1. Yes, as long as the child is not adopted it’s up to biological parents – we are agree, Mr. Prunean. 2. The uncertainty the CPS mention has nothing to do with interferring the baptism or not – just about the order – first the future juridical situation – then the baptism – is that so hard to understand? – or – you need something to make a problem of because of activism?
Is reunification a main goal in the Norwegian system?
If possible and considered to be to the child’s best – of cause.
Knut, are there any official statistics on reunification numbers?
The Child welfare Act § 4:21
Section 4-21. Revocation of a care order.
The county social welfare board shall revoke a care order when it is highly probable that the parents will be able to provide the child with proper care. The decision shall nonetheless not be revoked if the child has become so attached to persons and the environment where he or she is living that, on the basis of an overall assessment, removing the child may lead to serious problems for him or her. Before a care order is revoked, the child’s foster parents shall be entitled to state their opinion.
The parties may not demand that a case concerning revocation of a care order shall be dealt with by the county social welfare board if the case has been dealt with by the county social welfare board or a court of law in the preceding twelve months. If a demand for revocation of the previous order or judgment was not upheld with reference to section 4-21, first paragraph, second sentence, new proceedings may only be demanded when documentary evidence is provided to show that significant changes have taken place in the child’s situation.
Mr. Prunean – have you knowledge of or information about the numbers coming from Mr. Reikerås about reunification?
I can’t find any statistics on the regular net, but I can ask my colleagues probably – I say probably because I don’t know in detail what my next day at work might lead to – tomorrow – but – my guess is that we don’t have that statistics because as far as I know we only give away statistics to numbers on active cases as certain dates and reunification may alter a situation to help measures or even no measures. The key word is active.
Knut, I was hoping you would have the official numbers from your employer. The general feeling is that reunification percentage is low, even long term. Maybe professor Skanland or Mr Simonsen have some data on reunification after confiscation.
I agree with Delight.
You have tried the deflection tactic again, Knut. And then you have made a great leap over a huge chasm that no one should attempt.
“The problem with Christian faith in a secular society is when you or a member of the family tell others that Jesus (alone) is the way – the truth and the life – that someone might react because you then tell that only your belief is the right one and all the others are ?? In an direct or indirect way you disrespect other members of the society.”
There are many countries where Christians are in the minority today. Does it mean that they disrespect others in the country who don’t believe in the Gospel message by attempting to live it?
There is the old saying that most are aware of: “You don’t talk about politics or religion.” I have found that everyone is interested in these topics perhaps more than any other. People are no different today than they have always been; many are seeking for truth.
Jesus was not afraid to share his views on such topics.
When Thomas asked Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” the answer is to the point:
“Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'” (These verses are found early in John 14)
Thus, Jesus claimed to be unique. One will find that the Gospel message is unique. Why would anyone be disrespectful by having a unique view?
“In an direct or indirect way you disrespect other members of the society.”
How can a Christian have such a view, Knut? To live uniquely is the Christian life. You seem to have no understanding about the Christian life.
You seem to have as much understanding about the Christian life as you have about the Mothers’ homes. It is little or none.
It has been almost two weeks since the story about the Mothers’ Homes was published. You have neither confirmed or denied this account although you have tried to discredit it somewhat:
Since this account was published, the baby boy in it has been taken by the CPS of Norway, separated from his mother, and moved a 7 hour drive distance from the child.
The only reason that is given for the baby to be taken appears to be over something that a friend stated on social media. When was the freedom to speech idea shut down in Norway’s democracy? A baby is removed from its mother because of something a friend thinks?
There is something wrong in Norway.
Every day that passes causes harm to that child. The mother didn’t cause the harm that happened in the Mother’s Homes and the mother is not causing harm now. The next time the mother sees the baby it will probably act as it did during the last visitation. Throughout most of the last visit the child seemed cold to the mother, showing little emotion. By the end of the visit, the child seemed to revive back to its former self, the self that the mother recognized during her month away from the Mothers’ Home.
At the end of the visit, the child was taken and moved without the mother’s knowledge to a place much farther away.
“Hmm… during the years I so far have lived there is three professions that have lost both power and general respect in the society – that is the teacher, the priest and the police.”
Almost all would agree that this is a bad thing, Knut. What do you think?
The reason for this problem? Man has become a creature who, more and more, is doing right in his own eyes. (Judges 21:25)
“I don’t know where you live Jasper, but in Norway as in the USA more and more people find church going or participating in a congregation not to be their priority.”
I think you have this right for two reasons, Knut.
1) people today are less concerned about God’s will for their lives
and
2) it is getting harder to find a church where the Pastor rightly divides the Word of God.
“The nation by their regulations and law give all religions egual rights.”
This is true when you spell equal correctly.
“Education has the last 50 years been based on a principle of giving knowledge about religions as a whole with less an less priority on the Christianithy.”
We also agree here. The more a balanced view of the Law and the Gospel is neglected, the more unbalanced any society will be.
“In Norway many people turn their religious need to search the occult and new age area – as our Princess Martha Louise who are the co-owner of ‘The Angel School'”
This is sad.
“As Jesus and bible stories are less and less heard in the Norwegian school f.i. Mindfulness has it’s promotors and are on the way in – also my office have been visited by this insentive and most of the members accepted the invitation and got influenced to something that was much like hypnosis.”
In your earlier comment you stated that Christians have a: “direct or indirect way you disrespect other members of the society.”
A Christian could not write such a thing.
Now, you appear to be saying that it is a bad thing that “Jesus and bible stories are less and less heard in the Norwegian school.
There is one, Knut, I think. He is trying to cause confusion, deflect attention from the real important issues being discussed here, playing with words to make his true wishes hard to understand, and using other tactics that all propagandists use. Why do they use these tactics? It is because they want something to appear in a different way than it really is. You don’t fool me at all anymore, Knut. And I don’t think you are fooling anyone else either.
Mr Nygaard quotes the law: “… new proceedings may only be demanded when documentary evidence is provided to show that significant changes have taken place in the child’s situation.”
And reunification of child and parents can only take place when the parents have changed that in their behaviour or circumstances which led to the child being taken away.
It SOUNDS a sensible law, doesn’t it? The thing is, though, that when the CPS has some “concern” about the parents which boils down to gobbledigook and psychobabble, or which is so vague that there is nothing to get hold of, or entirely in the past, or is only a surmise about the future: the parents may at some time com to …. ,
then it is utterly unrealistic to change anything. There have been many cases where there is really NO realistic reason why a child should have been taken in the first place. These cases with no rational foundation are often the most dangerous of all, since neither our courts nor the general population will believe that there was really nothing.
Now the reader can make a guess: How easy will it be for a mother whose child was taken on accusations like “she puts her own needs before that of the child”, no examples given by the CPS, and unwilling to submit to a new evaluation done by the same psychobabbler, to get the case taken up again, let alone get the child back.
Hey Chris – you are on your language homeground – I have not written much in english for the last decades. I try to tell you general information about how I find the situation in Norway – not that I agree.
I have told you a couple of times that we moved to Bergen for one reason – to give our children a possibility to attend a private Christian school because we want them to grow up with a knowledge they are free to give further to their next generation.
Did that do any difference? In Norwegian context – yes. This email is back in 2009 where our youngest was the remaining pupil. This mail is from two parents that had the responsibility for the prayer for the class – one hour in the class room praying over each pupil and their teachers –
29.09.09
Hei alle foreldre i 10. klasse!
Høsten er godt i gang og vi er klar for en ny ”runde” med klassebønn. Det er litt spesielt i år siden det er siste året på ungdomsskolen og ungdommene våre skal ta viktige valg for veien videre. Det er en utrolig flott ”gjeng” og vi kan være så stolte av hver enkelt.
Vi hadde en bønnesamling før elevene reiste til Polen, og ba spesielt for den turen. Videre denne høsten vil vi sette opp klassebønn en kveld i måneden slik at flere kan ha mulighet for å være med.
Det blir det klassebønn i klasserommet til 10. klasse kl 18-19
mandag 12. oktober
mandag 9. november
mandag 7. desember
”For jeg vet de tanker jeg tenker om dere, sier Herren. Det er fredstanker og ikke tanker til ulykke. Jeg vil gi dere framtid og håp.” (Jeremia 29,11)
Herren vil det skal lykkes for barna våre, også for hver familie. Hans tanker er fred, framtid og håp.
Ønsker dere alle et godt og velsignet skoleår! Send en melding om du har bønneemner, Oddveig
Hilsen fra bønnekontaktene
What I tried – on my poor english – to tell you that our nation is a change where more and more people turn away – or off – the Christianithy and other mindset and teachings that don’t demand something from you are gaining followers. We are in times of apostasy and the darker will be even darker, but we – as Christians – are the light in this secular society and shall never be afraid of the consequences of telling the truth – but we shall act wisely and move in The Holy Spirit.
I to think it’s a rather low %. Here is a master from 2013 – I have read through it looking for a number, but if you have a good translation possibility you will get a good overview of the considerations done on this theme – reunification possible or not
http://bora.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956/7237/109009808.pdf?sequence=1
“About placement and reunification in the CPS – the importance of the biological principle”
“Hey Chris – you are on your language homeground – I have not written much in english for the last decades. I try to tell you general information about how I find the situation in Norway – not that I agree.”
Let’s pretend your English is weak. Your comprehension is good enough to know that I have stated two things about you:
1) In my last comment I made this reply: “A Christian could not write such a thing.” Your English is surely good enough to catch that. I have implied that you are not a Christian and you have given no response. If you accused me of the same, I would refute your statement strongly. Why have you written nothing on the subject?
and
2) In my last comment I included this: “It has been almost two weeks since the story about the Mothers’ Homes was published. You have neither confirmed or denied this account although you have tried to discredit it somewhat:
Since this account was published, the baby boy in it has been taken by the CPS of Norway, separated from his mother, and moved a 7 hour drive distance from the child.”
I don’t see how you can address me and completely ignore these comments. There are two possibilities:
1) You are one of the worse defenders of the CPS in its history.
or
2) You don’t want to give any attention to the very critical information that puts your employer is such bad light.
I think the correct answer is the second possibility. I don’t think you are one of the worse defenders of the CPS in its history.
“I have told you a couple of times that we moved to Bergen for one reason – to give our children a possibility to attend a private Christian school because we want them to grow up with a knowledge they are free to give further to their next generation.”
Yes, I remember this, Knut.
I also remember, as a Christian school teacher, that many parents sent their children to our school for more than just Christianity. As the school I taught at was highly thought of, women who were pregnant and thinking ahead came in to sign their children up for 5 years down the road. Also, one requirement of me as a teacher was to visit each student’s home before the school year started. I was surprised to find that some of the homes had idols in them. It turned out that I had a great opportunity to share the Gospel message with children of many faiths in a multi-cultural setting.
Saying that you are sending your children to a Christian school does not explain your passiveness about my conclusion of you.
Here is your letter (Google translate):
“29.09.09
“Hello all parents in 10th grade!
“The harvest is well underway and we are ready for a new “round” with class prayer. It’s a bit special this year since it is the last year of middle school and our young people to make important choices for the way forward. It’s an incredibly great “gang” and we can be so proud of each one.
“We had a prayer gathering before students traveled to Poland, praying especially for the trip. Moreover, this fall we will set up class prayer one evening a month so more people can have the opportunity to be with.
“It will be the class prayer in the classroom to 10th grade at 18-19
“Monday, 12 October
“Monday November 9th
“Monday 7 December
“‘For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord. Thoughts of peace and not of evil. I’ll give you a future and a hope. ‘”(Jeremiah 29:11)
“Lord will be successful for our children, then for each family. His thoughts are peace, future and hope.
“I wish you all a good and blessed school year! Send a message if you have prayer requests, Oddveig
“Greetings from prayer contacts
This letter is similar to the one you sent to Naustdal but this one is less telling I think. This letter isn’t written by you but by supposedly two other people. It tells me nothing about what you believe.
“Did that do any difference? In Norwegian context – yes. This email is back in 2009 where our youngest was the remaining pupil. This mail is from two parents that had the responsibility for the prayer for the class – one hour in the class room praying over each pupil and their teachers –”
No, it doesn’t help me at all, Knut.
Also, I have now found this new ending:
“What I tried – on my poor english – to tell you that our nation is a change where more and more people turn away – or off – the Christianithy and other mindset and teachings that don’t demand something from you are gaining followers. We are in times of apostasy and the darker will be even darker, but we – as Christians – are the light in this secular society and shall never be afraid of the consequences of telling the truth – but we shall act wisely and move in The Holy Spirit.”
This also tells me nothing after all.
“We are in times of apostasy and the darker will be even darker…” People of many different beliefs think this same thing in our world today, Knut.
You are unconvincing as usual.
I will be on later to see what other twisting you attempt. Please don’t expect me to answer.
You can think what you want of me – you are not in any authority to evaluate me Christian belief – that’s beween God and me – and we have a good relationship.
What I said to you and I can say to some of the others – like Jasper – the questions you ask and think that I shall provide because I’m the one Norwegian CPS that try to have a decent dialogue with you – have all the answers ready for your use and so translate to you – and that’s it. No, I don’t have that kind of broad information about everything done or said in the CPS during the years – but as to day I have tried to find answers and
have given you most of my leisure time.
Hello again, Knut. You are still here? You seem very devoted but you have not answered so many easy questions. It is not surprising.
“You can think what you want of me”
We all have to make judgments about many things, even what time we go to bed.
“– you are not in any authority to evaluate me Christian belief –”
This is partially true. The Bible speaks of fruit and you have none as you work for an employer that snatches children from cribs. I cannot judge your soul, but I must judge your actions.
“that’s beween God and me – and we have a good relationship.”
Everyone has a right to their opinion.
“What I said to you and I can say to some of the others – like Jasper – the questions you ask and think that I shall provide because I’m the one Norwegian CPS that try to have a decent dialogue with you – have all the answers ready for your use and so translate to you – and that’s it. No, I don’t have that kind of broad information about everything done or said in the CPS during the years – but as to day I have tried to find answers and
have given you most of my leisure time.”
You have not answered all of Jasper’s questions I’m sure like you have not answered the questions of many.
So, why are you working on your day off? Is this an attempt at sympathy? How about having some sympathy with the young women in the Mothers’ Homes. Your employer evaluates them so harshly. Are they forcing you to get paid double-time?
Your English seems fine in most recent comment, Knut, in fact, it seems very good in many comments. It is only when certain questions are raised that you either don’t answer or your English fades.
I have started to translate the document that you have posted here. I was quite surprised when I found this:
“CPS takes over care of a child is considered one of the most intrusive measures that the public can impose upon citizens.”
I agree with the manuscript on this point found early. My question is and obvious one:
Why have Nadia and Caspian been treated so cruelly if the statement in quotes above is the true philosophy of Norway’s CPS?
Knut,
You wrote:
“The nation by their regulations and law give all religions egual rights.”
you also had written:
“The problem with Christian faith in a secular society is when you or a member of the family tell others that Jesus (alone) is the way – the truth and the life – that someone might react because you then tell that only your belief is the right one and all the others are ??”
These two are in contradiction. If all religions have equal rights then you have the right to tell what you think is correct. If you are not to tell what you think is correct, religions have no equal rights any more. Pretty simply and plain.
“The uncertainty the CPS mention has nothing to do with interferring the baptism or not – just about the order – first the future juridical situation – then the baptism – is that so hard to understand?”
first the future juridical situation – then the baptism – this is an intervention into family life and religious life already — is that so hard to understand?
I personally think that the 12 months rule is against European Convention of Human Rights.
At any time there could be new findings that make the state intervention no more necessary in a democratic society, and this part of the law is preventing effective legal remedy that has to be there due to Article 13 of ECHR.
Hi, Mr Nygard. Nice to read your remarks again, sword prepared for attack, vigilant to denounce activists and lunatics. I have a personal question: did you assist to a scene somewhere in the public space, in which a child cries, mummy/daddy in true dispair? I did, yesterday. People in the same bus were sympathetic, not so much the young lady which was with the boy. And the lad was having his say in the top of his voice. Imagine the shock if such a separation goes on and on. Do you witness in your job to heartbreaking scenes, thinking “it is a bad moment which will pass, it’s for the child’s well being”…? As for myself, babysitting one or other of my grand-children, I know that even with me, a familiar, kind presence, they did long for mummy/daddy, and waited impatiently the moment the parents would show. Human nature is like this, parenting is like this, with this strong, vital bond between parents and children. Of course not all parents are “fit”, but how far could go the efforts to prevent any virtual harm? Second question: does Barnevernet really believe it is God the Almighty?
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I remember another couple of cases in which Barnevernet made trouble in connection with religion. They have no clear agenda against religion, but it is certainly one of the things they use when it suits them, to cause a family pain or to pile up more accusations.
One case was in about 2004 – 2008, and it concerned a family in exactly the same are as Nadia’s case. Here, children were taken from a mixed Norwegian-foreign family. Barnevernet’s idea of “cultural sensitivity” was to send some kind of social worker from the mother’s country but from an entirely different section of the community, who looked down on this mother’s group, and who belonged to a different religion (the mother was a Christian).
The parents tried their best but of course were systematically rebuffed, and there is some evidence that the children were solidly brain-washed against their parents.
Several years later, the son was to be confirmed in the church. The parents planned to be there, to sit in inconspicuously in the gallery. However, before they could enter the church, they were met by people who had been mobilised by the foster parents and behaved as if they were guards. The parents were refused entry to the church.
The CPS said they had nothing to do with the action against the parents, it was the foster parents’ action, on the basis of the boy not having wanted his parents there.
The cowardly church officials, including the bishop, did nothing constructive, afterwards just washed their hands and said blah blah that everybody was welcome in the church and it was unfortunate that such an occasion should have been a scene for sensitive differences, and that the minister had to respect the boy’s wishes. Anyone would agree, but the question remains why the boy had become to hostile to his parents that he did not want to let them even see him be confirmed. If those WERE really his wishes. (We know of several cases where the CPS and fosterers claim that the children do not want to see their parents, but where this is shown to be untrue when the children finally manage to get home. It was even claimed that one girl, who had seen her father arrive at the door with a Christmas present, was terribly afraid of the father. So “frightened” that as soon as the father, having been rejected by the foster mother, had left and the foster mother went into another room, the girl ran out and after her father as fast as she could!)
The parents of the boy being confirmed once went to a summer meeting which some CPS critics held around those years; they sometimes stayed over night at camping sites, where they all got together and discussed their cases as well as having a couple of ordinary summer days camping. Many people met them there and said this couple were very genuine, friendly and loving, and very unhappy at the loss of their children.
There was something in the ordinary press about the ousting from the church, one or two of these articles are on the web still:
http://www.tv2.no/a/1806253
http://www.tk.no/nyheter/ble-nektet-adgang-til-kirken-i-sonnens-konfirmasjon/s/1-113-3516985
*
I will write something about another case where Barnevernet showed anger at parents who wanted their child baptised, but it will take me some time to make a reasonably concise account.
We know of several cases where the CPS and fosterers claim that the children do not want to see their parents, but where this is shown to be untrue when the children finally manage to get home. It was even claimed that one girl, who had seen her father arrive at the door with a Christmas present, was terribly afraid of the father. So “frightened” that as soon as the father, having been rejected by the foster mother, had left and the foster mother went into another room, the girl ran out and after her father as fast as she could!
That’s why the children should be heard at courts on open hearings.
In case CPS / foster parent insists the child is afraid of the parent, the parent should not be there, but the parent’s attorney should be allowed to ask questions from the child.
The child’s human right for a fair procedure is at stake if such a procedure is not followed and the voice of the child is not heard.
Agree, Jasper. But the brain-wash and quite heavy-handed influence is used. In the case of the girl who ran after her father, she was at last brought to the judges for a questioning in closed chambers. But by then she had been told all sorts of stories by her foster parents and the CPS people, apparently, because she had changed completely from the open, eager attitude she had shown when she was allowed to meet the mother. So she wouldn’t say anything to the judges, just looked sullen.
Actually, the meeting between mother and daughter was so successful that it made the CPS and the foster parents alarmed. So they came up with some derailing tactics and succeeded in having the authorities believe that the girl was now so “traumatised” and “upset” that any further meetings were out of the question, and that the girl had shown in play (a kind of special scheme they have where the psychobabblers “interpret” all that children do to little figurines) that she was frightened of the mother.
You can ask, “Does anyone believe this nonsense from “experts”?” I don’t know how many believe it, but they certainly practice it, and all our silly judges are full of respect.
That’s why the court hearing should happen within a few days after emergency care order!
and I would advise parents to visit their children, even giving gifts with two friends who can witness.
“That’s why the court hearing should happen within a few days after emergency care order!”
A first hearing in the County Committee takes place in not too many days if a child has been taken on an emergency care order issued by Barnevernet. But a County Committee is strongly inclined NOT to let the child go home, because they accept Barnevernet’s assurances that there was and is great danger and that Barnevernet needs more time to prove it by meticulous evidence and expert assessments etc.
It should be better if such a hearing were held in a regular court, but the way our whole judicial establishment of judges and lawyers have been trained in child protection law and practice, it wouold be just the same. I have seen too many CPS judgments to have much greater trust in them. In order for the court system to function adequately in CPS cases it is necessary to throw out all the text-book literature on CPS psychology and CPS law and practice, and establish something understood by all legal practitioners to be NEW, so that they cannot continue to do what they usually do: look to earlier judgments and repeat it, the way it is taken for granted is always safe, valid legal practice.
Jasper: “and I would advise parents to visit their children, even giving gifts with two friends who can witness.”
Some do. The result is often that the police issues a prohibition for them, the parents and their witnesses, against entering that area of Norway. If they either do not accept the prohibition or show any “unruliness”, or if the foster parents complain and say the visitors have been “threatening” so they are afraid and the child is not left in peace to develop their “attachment” to the fosterers, a criminal case will be raised against the visitors, the judgment will be that the same prohibition will be valid, and they may in addition be sentenced to some sort of punishment, including prison.
The father in the above case was saddled with a prohibition against entering that part of Oslo. A mother in another case has been given a prohibition against entering a very large part of the south coast and adjacent districts – I think it is a whole county or two. Her parental responsibility (read: “rights”) has also been taken away. In a court case.
The whole system is biased and abuses authority.
The prohibitoon should be brought to court out of turn and/or the policeman to be reported for abuse of authority.
Jasper: “The whole system is biased and abuses authority.
The prohibitoon should be brought to court out of turn and/or the policeman to be reported for abuse of authority.”
Exactly. You often pinpoint how elements in the system ought to be. I keep answering that it also leaks and fails in the places where complaints of abuses ought to be taken seriously.
I look forward to “due process” being established – – some time.
“In order for the court system to function adequately in CPS cases it is necessary to throw out all the text-book literature on CPS psychology and CPS law and practice, and establish something understood by all legal practitioners to be NEW, so that they cannot continue to do what they usually do: look to earlier judgments and repeat it, the way it is taken for granted is always safe, valid legal practice.”
I have come to the same conclusion, Marianne, after fewer hours of study. You have known this all along and see a large task ahead, but it is the only way for this situation to be rightly resolved.
“That’s why the children should be heard at courts on open hearings.
In case CPS / foster parent insists the child is afraid of the parent, the parent should not be there, but the parent’s attorney should be allowed to ask questions from the child.”
.I like your suggestion very much, Jasper. Any judge with common sense would see if the parent’s attorney was pestering the child or asking silly questions. Children are not heard in the current system and that has to be fixed!
Chris: “I have come to the same conclusion, Marianne, after fewer hours of study. You have known this all along and see a large task ahead …”
NO WAY, Chris! Of course I haven’t known it all along. I haven’t been especially quick realising either. When I started, way back in the early 1990s, I didn’t know anything about this being an entrenched system or about all the money in useless “professional activities”. Since then, I have seen details and developments in a fairly large number of concrete cases, some of them close to, some as an expert witness in court, but first and foremost I have over several years read quite a lot of professional and “professional” literature about it, and I was lucky to find a group of a dozen or so professional people, most of them in Sweden, who were determined to combat this aberrant, wayward theory and practice of social work. Many of you people in America have been far more alert and have probably absorbed considerably more in less time than I did. Don’t worry about that. The number of people around the world who have now made acquaitance with CPS systems is going to be a great help, not only in Norway, but hopefully also in other countries, to push for reform there to if needed, and to stay awake at possible unfortunate developments and try to speak out against them if they have not already happened.
Hi Marianne,
“Many of you people in America have been far more alert and have probably absorbed considerably more in less time than I did. Don’t worry about that.”
Ok. The “why” doesn’t really matter except that I’m guessing it has something to do with a view from the outside as apposed to having to figure out where the fly in the soup is when you are in the soup yourself.
I can see how you have found from those in Sweden who have helped you to understand these things. There are always people who know the truth no matter how hard is the attempt to conceal it.
Someone just posted this article on the internet yesterday, and I have found it quite interesting. It is mostly about Sweden.
I’ll post a few excerpts:
“The issue has assumed the character of a national scandal, although similar revelations have emerged in other countries including neighbouring Norway, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Belgium and the United States. Per head of population, however, only Nazi Germany sterilised more people than Sweden. How could such a programme be sustained in a country famed during the post-war epoch for its apparently enlightened social policy?”
and
“Each file starts with a form applying for permission to have the person sterilised. This could come from a relative, social worker, teacher, politician or even a neighbour. ‘These people would have the application forms in their possession, fill them in and send them to the Medical Board,’ said Ms Runcis. There would also be a doctor’s report and often results of intelligence tests. ‘They would ask questions like: name the King of Sweden, what is the population of some city and where in the country is another city? They were ridiculous questions. I can’t answer some of them.’ The medical board, in Stockholm, would assess the applications. A single official, invariably a man, would finally sanction the operation. ‘They made about 20 decisions a day.’ The most disturbing cases Ms Runcis found were those of the teenagers, some as young as 15, who accepted sterilisations in return for a release from a children’s home or special school. ‘It was a form of blackmail and these people didn’t have any choice,’ she says.”
This last example seems to be almost identical to the situation in Norway if one switches “sterilization” with “foster home care.”
The rest of the article is found here and is not too long. It is very educational, however.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/03/euge-19m.html
Please add “help” in the 3rd paragraph. And then “opposed.” And then my “is” is in the wrong place.
I need to either proofread better or stop re-reading my replies.
Chris: “I can see how you have found from those in Sweden who have helped you to understand these things. There are always people who know the truth no matter how hard is the attempt to conceal it.”
Yes, I learned a lot from them and also from some Danes and Norwegians. But it was not that they knew the lot either. I had the pleasure of contributing, from time to time, to the knowledge we shared. Most of all I think it was that exploring and working with the same kind of issues and then sometimes holding little conferences or get-togethers, we were encouraged. That combined with the fact that what we were trying, was to contribute to something outside our own concerns, to other people’s lives, not envying each other – we were all swimming up-stream, against heavy contempt from powerful political powers – not only “me and me and me and my own career and success” all the time.
“we were all swimming up-stream, against heavy contempt from powerful political powers – not only ‘me and me and me and my own career and success’ all the time.”
From my experience, Marianne, you and your associates were the exception to the rule in modern academia. How many are, at times, blinded in many ways by their own philosophies?
I suppose we can all be blind at times. When it comes to the important things, however, we must attempt to get it right. Most know that I claim that the item in the first position of importance is the Bible. Most of what I believe comes from lessons learned there. We are in the New Covenant.
We are to love out neighbors as ourselves. This spiritual law implies that all peoples have equal worth in the eyes of God.
Maybe a stronger rule is the Golden Rule but to me it is the same.
“Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.”
Again, this implies equality of human value to all, no matter who they are. It appears that those selected for “sterilization” (in the past) and those selected for “being removed from biological mothers to be placed in foster homes”(present behavior) are similar in that many times they are not seen as equals as say, political leaders, academics, or even the king. A good king in this world would recognize that his worth is not more valuable than the lowest in his kingdom. Only, he has a much greater responsibility as he has been given a powerful position.
Many at the higher end of things, politicians, media, academia, etc. have forgotten this simple thing. The neglect of a basic rule, that most humans acknowledge is a good one whether they have no spiritual life or a full one, makes a huge difference.
If it about “me” all of the time, I can’t try to understand about “you.” Trying to understand about “you” is something we could use more of in our world today. It is possible. All things are possible.
I will admit to you that it is not even close to being possible for me without the help of God. Others claim different sources. It is their right. Once we remove that right from others or ourselves, we are heading for the heap of civilizations that have imploded because this simple human right, that all men are created equal, wasn’t observed.
Fra protester i Oslo 11 juni.Det var skrevet på plakater
1665 barn og unge hadde et vedtak om omsorgovertakelse i 2014
4,5 barn per dag
8895 barn og unge var under barnevernets omsorg i 2014
76 % av alle barnevernsbarn på institusjoner i Norge har en PSYKISK LIDELSE. Mange får ikke hjelp
250 protesterte i Oslo .Det er by hvor bor 600000 mennesker.
76 %av 8895 det er 6760.
6760 barn lider og protesterer 250 presoner i by hvor bor 600000 personer
Hvor er andre som protesterer ikke ?
Det er Norge AD 2016
Jeg liker ikke bruk ord ,,omsorg,, her..Trakasering er bedre.
Cierpialo w 2014 w instytucjach barnevernet 6760 mlodych ,a protestowalo przeciwko temu 250 osob. w miescie w ktorym mieszka 600 tysiecy osob.
Gabriela: “Hvor er andre som protesterer ikke?” (Where are (the) others who are NOT protesting?)
Good question, Gabriela. I guess many are watching football on tv, eating pizza, pleased to think that they are much better than those “whom Barnevernet must take the children away from because they are violent drug-users”.
Nordmenn leser ikke aviser ? Nordmenn leser ikke barnefjern og barnavern ?Hva skjer i dette landet ?Problem barnevernet er ikke kjent eller de aksepterer det som skjer ?
Protester var verden rund ,det var -av og til – flere tusen personen flere steder , og i Oslo -250 (11 juni ) ?Hvorfor ?
Denne er til deg, Gabriela – trykk “last ned” og så “åpen” –
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00002915
The professional appointed by the CPS held my christian belief and perspectives on theology, and my pro-life opinion, against me as a father. I had “extreme” views, and this was supposed to say something about my personality and therefore also my ability as a father. I am however thankful that the specialist otherwise concluded that I was mentally healthy…
@Out of Norway: is your case on its way to European Court of Human Rights? I hope so.
That means you need to go through all domestic legal remedies first. If they also find violation of your human rights, even better.
No, our case is not on its way anywhere. We fled the country and live outside Europe now, and so far we are happy to survive and happy that all our children are healthy and doing well in every way. But I see that our case has elements of everything that you talk about here on this blog. A CPS-case in my view is a kind of legal vacuum where all the things that we did not think was possible in a democratic state, is possible indeed. Speculations , accusations and likes and dislikes is evidence good enough. My experience is also that you can appeal to polititians, municipality-leaders, county-administration and central government, but it does not matter what kind of evidence you lay on the table: They will conclude that there is “no reason to criticize the CPS”, or they will state that they can not go into individual cases.
I do not think that the CPS will use religion or “views” on human values as a main reason to remove children. But they will certainly use to “spice up” their case, or use it as one of many points that they sum up to color a parent in a non-sympathetic way.
I’ll second those experiences, Out of Norway, in that speculation and accusations are enough. I challenged them on the details – i.e. what their theory behind their accusation was and why it was bad for the child – and was told firstly that although they could explain it they don’t feel that they should have to, and secondly that they know what they’re talking about because they have been trained in this type of thing. In other words the typical authoritarian approach; do it my way because of my position, not because I have a logical argument.
After that I lost further points with them for calling them arrogant and self-righteous. Perhaps I should have kept that one to myself.
I, too, don’t believe that the CPS is either racist or anti-religion (nor are Norwegians in general in my opinion), but rather culturally xenophobic. It seems to me as if any variation from the “perfect family” template that they have read about in the textbook is to be stamped out at once, and that’s perhaps a sign of academic and professional laziness as anything else.
“altough they could explain it they don’t feel that they should have to, , and secondly that they know what they’re talking about because they have been trained in this type of thing.”
my conclusion is: intervention not necessary in a democratic society, crystal clear violation of ECHR Article 8.
A recording could have been a conclusive evidence on the level of international law.
Julian: “I lost further points with them for calling them arrogant and self-righteous. Perhaps I should have kept that one to myself.”
My experience is that barnevernet employees are not able to be professional. They do not manage to see through or beyond a parent`s frustration or anger. They simply do not think at such a level. A friend of mine, who is a health professional, said that his experience with the CPS through patients, was that they operate on emotions, and less according to facts. If they do not “feel” right about you, you really have no chance.
They certainly did not feel right about me.
When I look back at my own behaviour in their meetings, of course I see that I was not strategic at all. I was frustrated, sometimes I was angry, sometimes I think I made them feel stupid. Underneath it all was my great fear. Once I even got up in the middle of a meeting and demanded them to hand me documents that they were uncorrectly referring from. Of course, in their eyes, I could not be a good father. They were not able to interpret the situation, or to understand the stress parents are under when they see that the ones that are supposed to help, really make things worse and try to tear the family to pieces.
I do not think these people are evil, but maybe they are simple minded. And they feel important when they find something which in their minds might be something BIG, for example when my children had been verbally explicit at school. They were not ashamed to make free speculations about this, and these speculations could be harmful if they were mentioned at the County Board or in court. So in that way, as a parent you can really be judged without any prosecution or police investigation at all. And the children are the ones who suffer.
Besides, I think they work in a culture where they feel obliged to be loyal. They, like everyone else, do not want to become unpopular among colleagues and leaders. So some of them may keep their opinions to themselves. (I had a true impression that some of the employees that were involved in our case were more loyal than convinced, so to speak.)
Hva betyr ,, extreme meningen ,, etter mening til barnevernet ansatte ?
De selv er extreme ,gale ,eller helt abstract ( folk forstår Dem ikke ,hva de gjore og hvorfor )
Knut
Sa 3 zawody ktore utracily moc i ogolny szacunek w spoleczenstw ie-nauczyciel , ksiadz i policjant.
A wiec jezeli 1 policjan tma mniejsza moc ( mniejsza wartosc ) to trzeba wyslac po noworodka 5 policjantow.uzbrojonych po zeby.A tak dla porownania ilu policjantow wysylacie do 1 terrorysty, bo ja czytalam ze 2.To niemowlak jest waszym zdaniem 2,5 razy grozniejszy ?
Delight in Truth: “This is in effect a denial of standard religious practice.”
I agree, and I know that this family is not the only one being denied baptism for their infant. Many parents have experiences with Barnevernet that lead to the same conclution.
What about this one: On the day of baptism Barnevernet kidnapped the child, by executing their emergency decision! I have never heard of any child being in acute danger on their day of baptism! So their only concern could be that the child being baptized. What else?
Another one: Less than a week before the big day, the parents were informed by Barnevernet that they were not allowed to have the ceremony on the following Sunday. And the reason was that the fosterparent had suddenly decided to go on holiday!
Another one: The parents didn´t cope with having the foster parents being among the guests, so they stopped the planning. The parents was not violent and abusing, so why should foster parents force themselves into the family on a day like this?
Barnevernet denies religious practice in Norway, no doubt about that.
You really try hard to stear up some activist steam, Hennum – no doubt about that.
I understand that Chris and others are searching for real knowledge of how the CPS Works and what People in Norway in general consider about us.
I find from the comments that Your translation of Norwegian Works fine – here are some links I think might interest you.
What kind of information and help is offered to parents that have got their child in a care situation? “To you who have a child in the care of the CPS”- the presentation opens when you click “Last ned” and then “Åpen” –
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00003199
“Methods to strengthen the attachment between a foster child and a foster Family”
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00003380
“In what way should Professional recommondations for a collected Public service for babies and the youngest ones and their parents be done?
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00002719
“Methods to strengthen the attachment between a foster child and a foster Family” — as you know, European Court of Human Rights says even temporary foster care is last resort only and in general such cases the major goal should be make it possible to reunite the family. Only last resort of last resort is to prepare for forced adoption.
Strengthening attachment between foster children and foster parents before a binding decision on completely removing parental rights in itself should be considered as a violation of human rights of the child!
Helt enig med deg Jaspis .Calkowicie sie z Toba zgadzam Jaspis .To jest jakies szalenstwo i niebywale okrucienstwo ,zeby zabierac rodzicom mlode.Oczywiscie rodzicom ktorzy sie nimi opiekuja.W Norwegii zabiera sie kilka mlodych kazdego dnia .To jest potworne.Nastepnie tworzy sie dokumentacje oszczerstw na na przyklad 1000 stron.Kryminalisci z barnevernet oczerniaja rodzicow , robia z niewinnych ludzi kryminalistow.Maja stale etaty ,dobre pensje a rzucaja sie jak sempy na inwalidow , osoby ktore maja jakies ekonomiczne trudnosci.Wyrzucaja z kraju bezbronne matki ale zostawiaja sobie ich mlode .Ten kraj jest ciezko chory.I tworza jakies tony przepisow w ktore wierza i ktore mowia ze robia dobrze .To paranoja . Oni zyja w nierealnym swiecie i bardzo dobrze , ze caly swiat protestuje.Norwegowie w dalszym ciagu nic nie wiedza o protestach .Cenzura dzial tu swietnie.
“I understand that Chris and others are searching for real knowledge of how the CPS Works and what People in Norway in general consider about us.”
That’s correct, Knut. I will ask this nicely once, Please treat Margaret with respect after what she has been through.
You can smear me as many times with comments like: “You really try hard to stear up some activist steam,” but please leave her alone. She has been through something traumatic at the hands of your employer and certain CPS employees.
She has made a remark about how her friend’s child was not able to be baptized because there was never an opportunity because of Norway’s CPS. Not long after birth, Nadia and Caspian were taken into one of those cruel Mothers’ Homes that you won’t defend and, after 4 months there or so, have spent a short month or so at Ms. Hennum’s home recuperating from some pretty foul treatment.
You make a cutting remark and you don’t even deal with Ms. Hennum’s comments about other situations like her friend’s where children were deprived by the Barnevernet of an opportunity to have a religious ceremony done. I would think an honest opponent would deal in truth with those issues.
Let’s cut to the quick: Is Ms. Hennum correct or not in this statement, Knut:
“Barnevernet denies religious practice in Norway, no doubt about that.”
I notice your English has improved markedly since only yesterday. Maybe we got lucky.
“I find from the comments that Your translation of Norwegian Works fine – here are some links I think might interest you.”
Maybe you should use Google Translate and then your words would be better, Knut? It doesn’t always catch subtleties in language but the spelling is good. I would think as a professional you would be aware of such a free service as you “talk” a lot about using the internet.
“What kind of information and help is offered to parents that have got their child in a care situation? “To you who have a child in the care of the CPS”- the presentation opens when you click ‘Last ned’ and then ‘Åpen'”
I am still working on the previous document that you put up. It has been very interesting.
Here is the link that you previously shared:
http://bora.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956/7237/109009808.pdf?sequence=1
I am still in the process of using Google Translate to get an idea of what you have sent me. It looks to be a document that is very important and about how the Barnevernet handles certain situations. You haven’t replied to one comment that I have already made about it, but now I will add another.
I have skipped ahead to this section as I think you have used it before in your argumentation:
“4.2. Repeal of care order if the parents can afford 27 ‘Proper care'”
It is here where this is found:
“This allows the child welfare service to monitor whether care situation of the child’s parents changes as the child welfare service may come with advice and guidance so that care situation can be improved.”
This fits exactly what those who have endured your Mothers’ Homes have stated. They are monitored. If this is the document you are following, it gives you monitoring powers and I don’t see any limitations. It can be 24/7 since it is otherwise not stated. Comments from those who have been inside the Mothers’ Homes’ indicate that this is just what is occurring most of the time: constant surveillance. Imagine a young mother put under such conditions. It must be very stressful.
“…so that care situation can be improved.”
Yes, according to the BV and no other outside source since the politicians and media started ignoring BV behavior years ago. No questions are asked, at least in public it appears. I don’t even find a balanced media source within your own country that can seem to give two sides of the picture. It is all one-sided in the BV’s direction. There appears to be no oversight by anyone. The ones who can’t be heard above the noise of daily life are mostly considered “lowly” and “weak” by the BV. When you made the mistake of trying to take the Bodnariu children, it was an arrogant one. It appears that not only will you take advantage of those who have no defenders, in that case you went after a family that was well educated and Christian. This is why such a ruckus was created.
Now that that situation is “resolved” to some degree as we still don’t know the conditions of the agreement, you think that all is back to normal. I think the opposite. I think that many are beginning to really think there is something to the words of those whom you refer to as “activists” and what other names have you called Marianne in particular?
I should really complete the last document but I think I will take a peek at the document which you have quoted below as time allows since it has the word “attachment” in it.
If the huge amount of information on the internet about “attachment theory” between mother and child is correct, then a great amount of harm has been caused to the baby Caspian and for no good reason.
You have thrown quite a lot on the plate here and I will try to eventually get to it all. First:
I will reply after I have looked at the following document:
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00003199
“Methods to strengthen the attachment between a foster child and a foster Family”
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00003380
“In what way should Professional recommondations for a collected Public service for babies and the youngest ones and their parents be done?
https://www.bufdir.no/bibliotek/Bufdirs_publikasjoner/Dokumentside/?docId=BUF00002719
Chris (referring to Mr Nygaard): “Here is the link that you previously shared:
http://bora.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956/7237/109009808.pdf?sequence=1
I am still in the process of using Google Translate to get an idea of what you have sent me. It looks to be a document that is very important and about how the Barnevernet handles certain situations.”
I have skimmed through some of the document, Chris. It is a Master’s thesis in the subject law at the University of Bergen. The central concept traced through various parts of a CPS case is “the biological principle”, i.e. the principle that it has special value for a child to grow up with its own parents. The thesis has been published with the candidate anonymous. This is usual while evaluation is still being done; after the exam and everything is over, the candidate could publish it under his own name if he/she wished. In order to be suitable for reference it would have to be published under the author’s name.
It seems a quite clear and coherent and is easy to read. The literature list is very standard and not long.
If I were to comment on the content of the thesis, it would be that especially his conclusion shows the author to be completely mainstream, an echo of CPS ideology. The literature he refers to by lawyers whose influence in areas of child-related law has been central, expresses clearly the view that is becoming standard: that of believing that the biological principle is not important, perhaps just something invented by adults and not important for a child. There is no trace of any familiarity with scientific or other literature which points to biological bonds being other than a social construction.
The thesis might nevertheless be useful because it summarises main trends and reasoning in Norwegian law in the last decades. (I have not checked up on its correctness, though.)
So, Marianne, Knut give me a link to an anonymous Master’s thesis about law at the University of Bergen. I find that odd. I would think he would give me something more official.
Chris, I agree.
An anonymous master thesis from a university, where it is unknown even if it has passed or not. If it is all that Barnevernet employees have why are they so confident about what they do?
@Marianne: maybe time to invite some real researchers (like child psychiatrists etc.) to do real scientific research to be published on the side-effects of Barnevernet’s interventions? 🙂
Unfortunately this takes time. But such a retrospective research should be possible and could be a bullseye…
Jasper: “maybe time to invite some real researchers (like child psychiatrists etc.) to do real scientific research to be published on the side-effects of Barnevernet’s interventions?”
Agree, it’s high time. Several of us have been looking around for years. Impossible in Norway for anybody outside politically correct circles to get research money for a sustained, goal-directed effort of that sort, and you can guess what the politically correct do. Very difficult to find Norwegian child psyciatrists to do it also. And if it were to be concentrated especially around Norwegian CPS, they would have to be competent in Scandinavian language. There is a lot of international research – and the occasional Norwegian study – which is pretty clear, but it is mostly “here and there”. The research team around Agid, Kendler etc is good, their perspective is the effects of children being deprived of a parent.
http://www.barnasrett.no/sverre_kvilhaug/hensynet_til_barnets_beste.htm
http://www.mhskanland.net/page2/page163/page163.html
“Impossible … for anybody outside politically correct circles to get research money for a sustained, goal-directed effort of that sort, and you can guess what the politically correct do”
Yeah, political correctmess endangers human rights. And not only that way.
So there is even scientific evidence from Scandinavia that forced foster care and forced adoption are toxic. (I do not say it is not helpful in certain cases. Chemotherapy is toxic but helpful against cancer.)
Good to know, on a swedish online newspaper’s comment feed it would have been helpful for me.
So, the high threshold for emergency care order has to be high with respect to the toxicity of emergency care order in itself.
Reblogged this on Dumnezeu e în control.
Slowo arogancja dotyczy wiekszosci norwegow-podkreslaja to wszyscy obcokrajowcy.Czytacie przepisy i zastanawiacie sie nad nimi.Ale sa jeszcze na pewno instrukcje , ktore pracownicy dostaja z gory , od swoich szefow.Na
przyklad instrukcja ,ze teraz lapiemy mlode rumunow, cyganow i par mieszanych rumunsko – norweskich.Oni nie sa tak subtelni jak wy .Przepis moze byc dobry ,gorzej z jego interpretacja.Prosze pamietac o historii przesladowania mlodych z niemieckimi genami po wojnie,mlodych Samow (ludzie mieszkajacy na polnocy ,hodowcy reniferow ) i okrutnego przesladowania cyganow wczesniej.Czy mentalnosc Norwegow sie zmienila ?Moim zdaniem nie.W dalszym ciagu jest tu wielu rasistow ,ktorzy nie traktuja obcokrajowcow jak ludzi. A jesli barnevernet przesladuje obcokrajowcow to przecietny Norweg na pewno nie bedzie ich bronil.
Bedzie myslal ,ze obcokrajowiec stracil mlode i teraz to mlode jest w rekach cywilizownych ludzi czyli Norwegow. Bo przecietny Norweg to tez rasista myslacy ze stoi wyzej niz obcy.Problem jest ze ci barbarzyncy pochowali sie za fasada ,, barnas beste ,, i nie musza sie z niczego tlumaczyc.Wolno im zabrac dowolne mlode , w dowolnym czasie od kogokolwiek ,Ale uderzaja 3, 5 razy czesciej w obcokrajowcow.A potem sie do tego dopasuje dokumentacje zeby bylo wyjasnienie.A problem jest prosty.Jak zatrudniony w barnevernet zabierza obcemu dziecko to jest mu przyjemnie ,bo jest rasista a do tego ma duze pieniadze.Wiec i zadowolenie i pieniadze.Norwegowie wyrzucali i wyrzucaja mlode ktore tu sie urodzily ,znaja jezyk norweski i spedzili tu czasem nawet 12 lat zycia .Dla Norwegow ani obcokrajowiec ,ani jego mlode nie bedzie nigdy mialo takiej samej Duzej wartosci jak Norweg.A jak jestes gorszy , underart, pod czlowiek to mozna cie gorzej traktowac ,gorzej placic za prace ,dawac ci gorsze prace (najlepiej tylko fizyczne i oplacane najnizej jak tylko mozna) i mozna podczlowieka wyrzucic z Norwegii -bo to dla nich zadna strata.A jak sie kogos zle potraktuje to inni nie przyjada..
Przeznaczyli na wydatki barnevernet 2,2 miliardy .Ile pieniedzy przeznaczyli na pomoc dla cyganskich matek.NULL.
Gabriela, we have a fairly large Polish-American community in Phoenix, most of them moved here from Chicago, where is the largest Polish community in U.S. If there are any articles in Polish language about Barnevernet please let me know, so I could pass the links forward and republish those articles. Thank you for your support.
Dostales pierwszy przetlumaczony tekst ale mi odrzucila poczta.Czy polacy nie moga zalozyc strony dla nich na np polskim onecie.Na ten adres list nie dociera .
moja norwegia .no jest w dwoch jezykach polskim i norweskim.
Jesli chcecie moge dla was tlumaczyc norweskie teksty z bardzo ciekawej strony barnefjern .Podajcie adres na jaki Wam przeslac te tlumaczenia .Pozdrawiam i zycze zdrowia i sukcesow.
mojanorwegia .pl
There was some discussion further back in this thread about reunification and how many children are allowed to go back to their children.
Delight in Truth: “Maybe professor Skanland or Mr Simonsen have some data on reunification after confiscation.”
I have talked with Aage Simonsen (who is competent in statistics), and he has tried to go into what SSB (the central statistical bureau) and Bufetat (the CPS section of the Ministry) have. He says he can’t find any figures about this (quite revealing if they do not publish it). One can of course take the number in care at one time, add the number of new children taken in a year, and compare that to the number in care at the start of the next year, but some pass out of the system at 18 years of age, while some in care are there “voluntarily” on the part of parents or child. And even such rough numbers are not clear. A proper statistic would break numbers down properly into categories.
It resembles the way Bufetat brag about 8 out of 10 families being satisfied with the help they have received from the CPS. This seems the way they do statistics. The families asked were apparently very carefully selected by the CPS. And guess what a family says which is still in the grips of the CPS but their children are not taken but are on the brink of it, when the family is asked whether they are satisfied with CPS guidance.
As far as I understand, she tried…
Council of Europe is moving in the correct direction in its resolution last year, recommending collection of statistical data on how many years in foster care in average before reunification.
Very good suggestion.
All the years you have been trying and it has got u no where,Marianne S.
We still have the same barnevern. And it is going in the opposite
direction of what you wanted. How come you find the spirit and energy to continue this for decades? Cps in the entire world is never going to change and Norway is one of the leading contries in that directions. What will it take for you to understand that you have to focus on what is benifitting Norway-or your life now? You are wasting your time.
Whatever happened in the past,no longer exist.
I think professor Skanland has seen some reward this year after many years of fighting barnevern. The world knows what is happening in Norway and how thousands of families suffered because of its CPS.
It is exactly what you want all of us to do, Topsy.
You may or may not be aware of the Apostle Paul. He once persecuted Christians, just like Norway’s BV persecutes the innocent. Thankfully, God opened Paul’s eyes. Although he had great education, he was blind to the truth. He thought he was doing the right thing before Jesus spoke to him. He had great zeal to do what was right even though he was in the wrong.
I think those who are doing evil things in the name of the Barnevernet are not like Paul. Paul had a great understanding of the Law. He was not familiar with the Gospel before his conversion. BV workers know the law. In fact, what I’ve read the law on some of these issues and it isn’t that bad. The law is interpreted, in some cases, for evil purposes that have nothing to do with zeal. It is plain disobedience and wickedness.
“All the years you have been trying and it has got u no where,Marianne S.”
I think Delight is more right than you are on this one, Topsy. But let’s pretend that you are correct. Why would any of us and particularly Marianne, who has perhaps a greatest investment in this issue than anyone, drop the ball and give up?
I want to finish the race, like the Apostle Paul. I wish to keep the faith, also like the great evangelist to the Gentiles. Paul was a Jew who was given a job to do. That job was costly in more ways than one. I think that you’ll find that there will always be a Christian somewhere who will stand up and speak the truth. Until Christians are raptured (I’m not dogmatic on any particular timing of this event but it will happen as it is described in Matthew 24) and even after that, there will be Christians who will speak the truth of God’s Word into the world no matter what people like you say.
Topsy, now you told why we are concerned by Barnevernet’s practices.
“Cps in the entire world is never going to change and Norway is one of the leading contries in that directions”
I am not only concerned about Norway — which country is percieved as a leading country in democracy usually. Barnevernet’s practices must not stay in the dark, so the World should know: Norway cannot be considered as a leading country with respect to child welfare.
I think we as Christian shall choose out Battles so we don’t Waste either Our precious time nor His purpose With what we do With Our daily walk With the Lord. I cannot understand that you are chosen to fight a Public service in particularly Norway. To condsideration and refection
It looks as though my person is the topic again. How boring it must be for everybody. But let me add to it:
It really seems that “Topsy” is concerned about my well-being. The context here was that I in a short remark expressed pleasure with what the Council of Europe is doing.
I can comfort Topsy: That did not really affect my life negatively. Nor did it take more than a few seconds, since I know quite a bit about the Council of Europe’s concern over Norwegian child protection already, e.g.
“A very important report is coming from the Countil of Europe”
http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7801
About the rest of what I write and contribute to in the field of child protection and court cases which deprive people of any proper rule of law:
I am certainly selfish, but I am not so selfish that the only thing that gives me happiness is to think endlessly about myself, my comfort, my money, my leisure, my pleasure, and forget all about other people who desperately need help in my own country. It is also satisfying to meet other people, as I have done at the recent demonstrations, who have come and told me that they appreciate what I am writing.
I am a realist, and find that realism also gives depth to the meaning of life. This is the world, this is life, this is reality, this is the situation we are in now. It is quite possible that the present wayward way of “protecting children”, as I think it is, will go on in Norway still. Lots of people thought the Soviet Union’s hold on so many nations would go on forever also. I think I have said so before: Along with others, I am helping laying down a trail of information which new victims can follow if they want to, so that they do not have to start completely from scratch, knowing nothing, not knowing anywhere to turn, believing they are quite along in experiencing the onslaught of Barnevernet.
So I do what I do because it is right.
“I think we as Christian shall choose out Battles so we don’t Waste either Our precious time nor His purpose With what we do With Our daily walk With the Lord. I cannot understand that you are chosen to fight a Public service in particularly Norway. To condsideration and refection.”
I am not being sarcastic here, Knut. We have learned enough from you. Will you not waste anymore of this blog space with your comments please?
As I have been able, I have felt it necessary to respond to your words as they represent the CPS of Norway when they show up. You have not made the CPS look good at all. You are only hurting your own cause.
If you go away, we can focus not on your criticism of those like you. It would assist us in “choosing our battles” where this can be a place of discussion about the problem and not about you.
There. I have asked nicely. I will do it again. Will you please go away?
I am no prophet but it doesn’t take one to know what your response will be. I know you will continue to come and we will have to respond to your propaganda because we never know who may visit this site.
“So I do what I do because it is right.”
I, for one, appreciate your commitment to the right, Marianne. You have given more answers in one thread than the other side has since this discussion has been on this blog.
I am sure there are a few people who were very supportive of the Bodnariu family who now feel that we don’t need any other demonstrations because they are not aware that there are many more such cases. You have hung in there for years, despite all odds and despite a system that entrenched so solidly that it thought it could get away with taking 5 children from wonderful parents and split them up into 5 different foster homes. They are thankfully, back together.
Now…
What about Aria? What about Tyler? What about Eva’s family? Shall I continue? I could find 1000 and many more names of families that have been and continue to be haunted by the CPS of Norway. There are many who will continue to speak out for the reason that Marianne gave:
“So I do what I do because it is right.”
“But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.”
Oktawian otworzcie jakies konto na ktore mam wysylac przetlumaczone z norweskiego na polski artykuly z barnevern.org i z barnefjern .org .Bardzo ciekawe artykuly i jest tam opisanych mnostwo spraw i komentarzy do tych spraw napisanych przez prawnikow, politykow itp itd.Polecam , nie mam problemu z tlumaczeniem z norweskiego na polski .
Gabriela, can you please send me the information about that website to my email? It’s OctavianArizona @ gmail .com Of course, with no space 🙂
I didn’t write it all together for I don’t want to receive spam.
If there are any Polish families affected by Barnevernet, I would like to notify some of your community members from Phoenix and Chicago.
wiadomosc wyslana zostala odrzucona.Jedyna rada to otworzenie konta na polskich stronach.Ale tlumacze nadal.Teraz tylko pokonanie problemu przesylania .Pozdrawiam
Seeking protection in Russian from Nazi Norwegian Child Protective Services:
http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/2013_08_06/Russian-girl-awaits-asylum-documents-to-exit-Sheremetyevo-transit-zone-8723/
Seeking protection in Russia from Norwegian Child Protective Services:
http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/2013_08_06/Russian-girl-awaits-asylum-documents-to-exit-Sheremetyevo-transit-zone-8723/
Some interesting news:
http://www.barnefjern.org/baby-caspian-snatched-by-barnevernet/
As long as the Barnefjern article is based on reality, this sounds like a violation of Articles 6, 8 and 13 of European Convention for Human Rights so far.
I would advice the parents for asking an interim measure by court to suspend emergency care order — based on Articles 6, 8 and 13 of ECHR:
– right for family, only interventions that are necessary in a democratic society are allowed,
– right for fair process — judge cannot neglect evidence
– right for effective (also quick enough) domestic legal remedy
and if necessary, escalate the interim request to Appeal Court and if necessary, firthet Supreme Court and European Court of Human Rights.
Motives for interim requests should be usually judged out of turn (also based on Article 13 of ECHR).