Jun 6 2016

Barnevernet Boss Comments on the Bodnariu Case

Go away. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here…

That seems to be the attitude of Solveig Horne, the Norwegian Minister of Children and Equality, as if the Bodnariu case was just any other CPS case.

She said as reported by The Local: “I’m glad to hear that the parents and Barnevernet have come to an agreement and will cooperate so that the children can move back in with their parents. Now we will respect the children and the family by complying with their request for peace.”

No mention of the international uproar that has foreigners emigrating away from Norway in fear of Barnevernet. No mention of official proceedings against Norway in the European Court of Human rights and the Council of Europe. No mention of street protests and media fury against her CPS.  She only  mentions the cooperation that Barnevernet will now have with the family. Nevermind the international pressure which brought about this cooperation!

I will echo what Marius Reikeras mentioned in a public post. Why hasn’t Barnevernet cooperated with the Bodnariu family BEFORE confiscating their children? Why cooperate now, after Norway has been shamed on the international stage?

We know the answer.

Barnevernet never intended on returning these children.

Without massive pressure at multiple levels like government, media, social media etc, Barnevernet would have proceeded with their ANNOUNCED intent of forced adoption.

This case will have a lasting effect in Norway, and we see some evidence of it. An article in Dagbladet today is very critical toward the Norwegian media which has been a tacit bystander while CPS commits human rights violation.

The pressure must now intensify on cases like the Nans and Avramescus.

Time will tell how Norway will respond.

photo: Solveig Horne from vg.no

182 comments on “Barnevernet Boss Comments on the Bodnariu Case”

    • Knut, let me present you a case from Ecuador. They have really nice parks over there. According to Ecuador’s criminal law § 282 if someone steps on the grass in their parks his legs are amputated by local authorities. A Norwegian family moved in Ecuador a couple of years ago, they knew the Ecuador’s law but they could not manage and stepped on the grass in the park. They were arrested and their legs were amputated. Now, tell me honestly: what would people from Norway would say about Ecuador’s laws and the way they apply them? Ecuadorian people would keep repeating: “They broke the law. They broke the law. It’s the criminal law number 282”. Obviously, the case above is not real but I still want your opinion about this.

      Reply

      • Can you please explain what law in Ecuador states that a leg shall be amputated because of that? What case was that? If you don’t clear this then you are lying. Let me show you something: “Art. 282.- El Estado normará el uso y acceso a la tierra que deberá cumplir la función social y ambiental. Un fondo nacional de tierra,
        establecido por ley, regulará el acceso equitativo de campesinos y campesinas a la tierra. Se prohíbe el latifundio y la concentración de la tierra, así como el acaparamiento o privatización del agua y sus fuentes. El Estado regulará el uso y manejo del agua de riego para la producción de alimentos, bajo los principios de equidad, eficiencia y sostenibilidad ambiental.”
        Now tell me where an amputation is specified in that art282.
        There is not any argument against what muslims do, or any other culture. What is a fact is that Barnevernet is doing it wrong, they are kidnapping kids, they dont contact parents to check what is and what is not happening. Parents just realized that their kids are taken away! What about boundaries, have you check the cases of adults who are still SUFFERING because they were taken away from their families for stupid reasons?
        Now I understand why norwegians don’t touch their kids, not a kiss not even a HUG, nothing, that is FEAR.
        Cases of kids taken away rises to 1600 kids per YEAR, that in 10 years is more than 10000 kids! Somebody else is mentally ill, and they are not kids nor parents.
        Let me tell you something else, there is a private company that is involved in this Barnevernet cases…ahhhh BINGO! bussiness!! Right?

        Reply

      • AND there is the ecuador criminal Law 282: “Art. 282.- Incumplimiento de decisiones legítimas de autoridad competente.­ La persona que incumpla ordenes,prohibiciones específicas o legalmente debidas, dirigidas a ella por autoridad competente en el marco de sus facultades legales, será sancionada con pena privativa de libertad de uno a tres años. La o el servidor militar o policial que se niegue a obedecer o no cumpla las órdenes o resoluciones legítimas de autoridad competente, siempre que al hecho no le corresponda una pena privativa de libertad superior con arreglo a las disposiciones de este Código, será ancionado con pena privativa de libertad de tres a cinco años. Se aplicará el máximo de la pena prevista en el inciso segundo de este artículo, cuando la o el servidor militar o policial desobedezca o se resista a cumplir requerimientos legítimos de la Policía, en su función de agentes de autoridad y auxiliares
        de la Fiscalía General del Estado.”
        And now, where is the amputation?

        Reply

        • Octavian please explain, Yo, this was made up as an example..to show that if you dont follow the law in certain country (even though that is the law there) it would create an outrage in the international community, because the law does not follow common sense. The same is if children will be taken from their parents because of occasional spanking, majority of the people dont understand.
          Obviously nobody gets their legs amputated for stepping on the grass in Ecuador 🙂

        • Marianne, my examples showed something else:
          1) Why we are criticizing Norway. I showed that even Norwegians would protest if something major would happen to them in another country. Also, what seems to be normal from inside, it’s better seen from the outside.
          2) Exemple with rape
          The rapist would not get away with “work on behalf of community” in a country in which laws are applied equally and rape is considered a crime.

        • Yo, the example with Ecuador was not real. I could have used any other country in the exemple to show that you cannot decapitate people in a so called democratic country for breaking the law at any degree. Taking children away from loving parents is equally with extreme measures of amputating someone legs for trivial matters. You can do whatever you like in your country and then boast that in your country the law is applied (unlike in other countries) yet the human rights may be violated by your insane laws.

      • It is a good example. The punishment in your example is obviously out of proportion with the crime. The childrens` lives are likewise torn apart, and when questioned the CPS will answer: – But by now people in Norway should know that it is illegal to spank or in any way discipline children physically! In this way, they are killing a wounded bird, instead of nursing it. The children are punished harshly and for life for minor offences done by their parents.

        If the CPS could prove good outcomes for children in their care, they could somehow also be able to defend the immense amount of pain that they cause in the lives of the families and children. But on the whole, the results of the CPS interventions are both disappointing and alarming. In any other part of society, any kind of activity that produced such bad results would be stopped immediately.

        If there was at all any logic behind the CPS practices, the distorting and dissolving of families would be discontinued, – except from the cases where children are victims of criminal abuse or serious neglect. This is however not the case with the majority of children in foster care.

        Reply

    • Knut, I cannot forget the group of Muslim in Norway who raped a girl and they got 6 months community work as a punishment. I remember you said that “that was an exception”. Nevertheless, when it comes to spanking your laws are rigid. Marius’ brother said that Marius B. did not use a higher force when he spanked the children as he used when he played with them. There were no signs of physical violence on children’s bodies at all. Now, you keep repeating here the number of law that your authorities could have used against this family.

      Another thing that should be mentioned is that you said that it does not matter what laws they have in Estonia, Slovakia or Romania, if their people break the law on Norway’s territory they are judged according to Norwegian laws. Really? What about that group of rappers that brutally raped a minor girl in Norway? Why in the world your “wonderful country” did not judge them according to your rigid laws???

      I am sure that if another country would have very rigid laws (as the imaginary one with leg’s amputation for stepping on grass) your people would start arguing that the law is not fair. I don’t think Norwegian would vote Ecuador as a country where human rights are respected. Therefore, don’t be surprised that we are arguing with strong arguments that some laws in Norway are ridiculous and the way they are applied is abusive and the human rights are violated in Norway.

      Reply

    • Veronika Valachova, I want you to answer to my questions also. You are supporting a country that violates human rights because you have interests. Otherwise, I want to “hear” your explanation regarding the group of Muslim that raped a minor girl in Norway and they were not sentenced to prison. In other cases BV’ supporters stated here thousands of times that they do not care what the laws say in other countries.. How in the world in that case, this “wonderful” country made an exception and did not apply Norwegian laws? Does it not seem insane to you that in case of a brutal rape on a minor, the Norwegian authorities were soft but on a spanking issue they were very tough? I’ve noticed that you keep repeating here the same things without any kind of logic and you are trying to find inaccurate statements by the critics of Barnevernet. The fact that some statistics presented by BV critics are not accurate, does not mean that someone may discard all the facts.

      Reply

      • The rape is considered serious crime in Norway irrespective of the perpetrator ethnicity. What is the source of your information? And what was the age of the rapist? If there were under 15 years, they couldn´t be put in jail (the same in the Czech republic). If they were between 15 and 18 years old, it would be very unusual to put them in prison. There are only 2 prisoners younger than 18 years in Norway as I have read recently in a newspapers and there´s tendency not to use this punishment for the adolescents.

        Reply

  3. How many times have I told you – the children – the daughters told the CPS about spanking and other things and when that is done it opens the possibility for both a criminal case – according to criminal law § 282 – violence done in the closest relations – here – in the family – and for the CPS according to the child welfare act § 4-6, 2 junction – “If there is a risk that a child will suffer material harm by remaining at home, the head of the child welfare administration or the prosecuting authority may immediately make an interim care order without the consent of the parents.

    In such a case the head of the child welfare administration may also make an interim order under section 4-19.

    If an order has been made under the second paragraph, an application for measures as mentioned in section 7-11 shall be sent to the county social welfare board as soon as possible, and within six weeks at the latest, but within two weeks if it is a matter of measures under section 4-24.

    If the matter has not been sent to the county social welfare board within the time-limits mentioned in the fourth paragraph, the order lapses.”

    That this took so long is a question hard to answer, but it’s very seldom the criminal case ain’t closed before the CPS find an agreement to send the children home. We don’t know what especially the father have done to them – we know something about the spanking part, but the rest seems hidden.

    The cooperation now is a part of the agreement done as a result from what went on during the hearing – yes, there have been a hearing, but we don’t know what was said and done there, but we know that it ended with an agreement – and you should all be happy, but you’re looking for further ammunition and fuel – if possible. Yeah. as I told you – you are free to protest as much as you like, but that does’nt change a thing.

    Reply

    • Why not try to counsel the spanning parents with the warning, of You dont change your ways, You could lose your children. Why take the children away and then warn with adoption?
      Unbelievable….not wise at all!

      Reply

      • Where did this adoption thoughts come from? I have not seen anything about that coming from the CPS in Naustdal in the Norwegian media?

        Reply

        • Yes, they use blackmail to parents if parents insist, and even more if they use media to let people know about the case.

    • Knut, do you really believe in what you are saying?

      One of the daughters said after a few hours of interrogation..I am tired, I dont know what else I have to make up.
      Do you know how the girls were interrogated, do you know what kind of questions did they get, do you know how long they were interrogated, do you know what was promised to them? No..still you will go on and say that all that the girls said has to be taken as evidence?

      Here is my guess..There is nothing more to the story. If there was, the baby would never come back home and the other children would now also not be returned. This must have been a clear case where BV has overreacted. BV had intention to take the children and place them in permanent foster care very soon after the removal. Before the police investigation was closed, how could BV be so certain then?. They had the same intention until the CC hearing last week. The Bodnariu did not say one word about suggested cooperation from BV side, not even in the end of May. BV hated to loose this case and an agreement looks so much better than a lost high profile case. We all make our assumption from what we know and our own reasoning.

      So think what you want, but sorry, since when did you become a spokesman for the Bodnariu family? I guess I missed that one..

      Reply

      • And you get your information from ??? ..do you know the reliabilty of that source .. or is something drawn out of the context for propaganda reasons?

        Reply

        • It is the official Bodnariu page..again that page is done by the Bodnariu family.
          Until now you took all the information from that and you took the information from Peter Costea version, why such a sudden turn?

        • Pavla, the Bodnariu page is run by the apostoletic leaders, not by Bodnariu family.Peter Costea is a lawyer from the USA who has made up a story “66 hours in Norway” which was full of absurd claims about Norway and Norwegian society- i. e. teenagers older than 14 years have free time when they can do everything and their parents have no rights to ask them how they spend this free time…He assumed that school children have to watch porno movies during lessons etc, etc. He is not very trustworthy, quite opposite.
          The ongoing police investigation has been mentionned in every article I have read about he case. It was said that the father is under investigation regarding to domestic violence and restriction of freedom of family members. The investigation has not been closed yet and it has been always about the same accusations.

        • Veronika, bodnariufamily.org is run by the family. I met the person who operates it at the SF protest back in February. He is the husband of one of the Bodnariu sisters. They get a huge amount of traffic.

        • Delight in Truth, it would be rather so called extended family member but anyway, there is a list of the organization which has been involved in the campaign and in maintaing the website.

        • Veronika, the husband of one of the sisters is very close family for that matter. I would suppose that everything that is posted there is in accordance with the family wishes.

        • Knut, when the info comes from a victim you constantly ask about the value of the sourse. We ask the same question when the sourse is a BV employee. You have all characteristics of the communist leaders which tried to innoculate us the idea that only and only the members of the communist party are trust worthy people. Discard all the info from victims as unreliable…

      • From the defence ministry – Peter Costea version: “The story that defines this narrative begins in October 2015 when the school principal quizzed the oldest girl about a brawl on the bus between her and her younger sister and another boy. Among others, the principal asked the sisters about their home life, including how the parents treated them. The girls disclosed the parents, the father in particular, spanked them occasionally when they were disobedient, dirtied their clothes, spilled food at the dinner table, or had food or physical fights with each other. It was also alleged that the father slapped one of the children for calling a sibling a „fool”. Their mother usually intervened to stop the spanking, but she, too, is alleged to have occasionally spanked the girls. The spanking, the girls said, consisted of being pulled by the ear or being slapped on the buttocks. They also talked about their life on the farm, and that they were asked to do chores around the house, like set the table, feed the animals, fetch the eggs, or care for their younger brothers. One of the girls incurred a bruise on the head once when she and her sister jumped off the night stand and bumped into each other. They also talked about the parents disciplining them by grounding them or not allowing them to go out and play. When they fight, the girls said, the father breaks up the fight and „gently” spanks them to „learn” not to fight again. They complained, however, that, unlike their school peers, their parents did not give them a weekly allowance. They were also unhappy with being spanked because their friends told them their parents did not spank them when they misbehaved.”

        “The local police was also brought into the fray but it focused mainly on the spanking allegations hoping to indict the father. Their inquiries alluded to a prior incident in September 2014 when the oldest of the girls allegedly showed up at school with a bruise. School staff were questioned about the incident but no one seemed to be able to confirm the story or the cause of the bruise. This allegation became somewhat murky because the girls disclosed that on some occasions the father „rescued” them, once when one of them fell off of a shelf and the other into a pond. Their bodies hurt afterwards but no one was able to conclude whether the bruise on the oldest girl could be attributed to an intentional strike to the body or to the father’s „rescuing” attempts.
        Following the police investigation, on Monday, November 16, 2015 Barnevernet staff conducted discussions with the two girls at school. The girls were asked if the parents spanked them and the girls confirm they were being spanked occasionally.”

        “At 3:00 p.m. on the same day, the police arrested Marius at work charging him with physical assault of the children and interrogated him. He was shocked, and the atmosphere turned Kafkaesque. He was told of the allegations the girls had made against him. The father admitted some of the allegations and denied others, insisting that some of the facts, especially those related to physical abuse, were fabricated or exaggerated. He insisted he did not hit the children in anger and never hit them so hard as to leave any marks or bruises on their bodies. He admitted he played sports with the girls and that occasionally the encounters may have been rough as they usually are. On those occasions the girls may have been bruised, but he never harmed them or caused them any bruises.”

        ” He opined that what the girls told the authorities related to what may have happened when he and the girls plaid sports. After hours of interrogation the police asked Marius to sign a statement admitting to physically abusing his children. He refused. He was then informed of the charge against him: physical abuse of his children which carried a criminal penalty of up to six (6) months in jail. Eventually, however, the charge was dropped for lack of evidence.”

        If that charge was dropped moths ago – what are the police still investigating?

        Reply

        • Knut, you have found something, indeed. No idea, that would mean that the police investigation is closed, unless BV came with new claims. BUt I am unaware of that..

        • Pavla: ” No idea, that would mean that the police investigation is closed, …”
          The most likely thing is that the police have been leaning on Barnevernet and Barnevernet have been leaning on the police. In other words, they have wanted to hide behind each other.

      • It’s simple – the CPS in Naustdal understood that their case for longtime placement not was possible to achieve, but – as I have said months ago – the children should be home with an agreement for a set of help measures – I proposed guidance, supervision and a helpers meeting for relatives and neighbours – friends – Christians in the area – people with a heart for the family – that the family knew of and could invite to a Family Council – these people shall then together make out a list of help given by them as friends and relatives – not as CPS – the CPS only provide the person to lead the Family Council – say a few words about the family’s situation and then leave – after usually many hours the CPS is called for and sit at the table with the Council and the parents with children ( if that is considered wise) and go through the list the helpers have confirmed that they will do with some or for some in the family.

        Reply

        • Actually this sound interesting. I have heard about one municipality, where BV reduced up to 80 or 90 % of removals thanks to this family council?
          I am sure with Bodnariu it would be enough to have one or two meetings. Very smart & loving parents who will do anything for their children.

        • Pavla: “I have heard about one municipality, where BV reduced up to 80 or 90 % of removals thanks to this family council?”

          That is why Barnevernet doesn’t really want it. Talking is not doing.

        •   
          Mr Nygaard: “.. the CPS in Naustdal understood that their case for longtime placement not was possible to achieve”

          We should ask yourselves: Why should they want to “achieve” this at all? Whose interests are served that way?

        •   
          Pavla: “But what do you think about the family council Marianne?”

          It is an excellent idea. It will often work well (we hear from New Zealand) when there is really something that has to be taken care of, like out-of-control youngsters or impossible parents. In NZ, among the Maori population they are used to greater reliance on the extended family already.

          A family council will not work for the CPS when there is really no reason why the child should be taken from the family, perhaps no reason at all why the CPS should push on with any activity. Because in such cases the family council would say with one voice: “Are you crazy, you social workers? How can you create trouble in this way? Go boil your head in a pot!”

          So Barnevernet would lose their almighty powers and be reduced to ridicule and impotence in such cases, and they are probably the large majority. Lots of people taking part in family councils, even extended family-and-friends-who-would-be-happy-to-help councils, they would all get a real close look into Barnevernet’s activities. They would no longer say, “We suppose there must be something very serious the family has done which is kept hidden.”

        • I should have added that family councils have been well-known on a more or less formal level for some 40-50 years, it is not a fancy idea thought out by social workers. Informally it used to be the way things were done: Mum can’t take care of Betty, so grandma will take her in.

      • Pavla check the list of organizations which have been mainting website. There are religious organizations from the USA, not family members. Do you agree with me that Peter Costea description of Norway was ridiculous? I doubt if Ruth´s Norwegian family woudl agree with these lies about Norwegian people. So, Peter Costea (the main author) is not very trustworthy person for me. Nor he is reliable source for Norwegians, including these critical of the BV work.
        You can read this discussion: https://www.facebook.com/Peter-Costea-407413792695356/?fref=nf (date 12th April, theme: 66 hours in Norway).

        Reply

        • Veronika, I have not paid much article to 66,6 hours. This is a subjective observation and I dont think such a short time is enough to form an opinion about the country. It sure does not make me think of Norway in bad way. I do recognize certain things from what he writes though here in Holland. The shopping centers are kind of outdated even if you compare them to Czechia. That is of course, because many of them were here long before we in Czech Rep. ever had any shopping centers 🙂 Do I blame the Dutch for that? No, they seem to be happy with them. I do criticize sometimes, that they could improve the services here, the opening hours (Monday morning have many shops closed, some shops are closed the whole Monday, something from the past..) and about the health care in particular..but still it does not make me think badly about the country as whole.

          Same about Norway. I guess if you compare Norway to the US with its long opening hours, top customer service than Norway can seem outdated (that is my guess I admit, I have not seen one shopping center in Norway). But I will check some photos. I was in the US and the difference is striking. I was surprised how they pack your groceries, how long the shops were open (we could go to buy something at midnight etc.).. Again this article would not convince me about Norway as a country. I think we all should create our opinion from more sources & reality and our own assumptions for it to be as objective as possible.

          I start to wonder about the sexual education in Norway, esp. the one clip I have seen and I really wonder what age is that supposed to be for? I hope not too young. I would not be happy if my 9year old was shown something like that..

          I can not comment about the children who must have certain time for themselves every day? Maybe can someone explain? I did read that for example house arrest is seen as something bad. How is it for example if a parent forbids his child to play with certain children? I can tell you that if my child was around children who would have bad influence on him, I would not be happy about it and I would of course try to influence that.

          Last, if I was Peter Costea, I would have spend a few days in Norway as its such a beautiful country with great nature. That is a fact.

        • About the fact that you have to live in certain country, to know for sure how things are. I dont think so. I live in Holland for 12 years and I have absolutely no clue about how the Dutch CPS works. I can of course say, that in my surroundings there are no children taken, but that does not mean much. If you think that less than 1 % of the children is taken, than the chance that I will know a family that had their child taken is almost 0. Its not about the amount of children taken, its about why they were taken and what happens after the removal. I think now everybody understands what the real problem is, surely the people in Norway start to understand.

          Marianne, I was wondering as well, how comes that for foreigners the separation from the family, taking children without warning and placing them with complete strangers etc. is a horrible abuse. Most of them (us) understand that this will leave marks on the children for a very long time. Even children who were taken for short period of time were scared to go back to school, scared of strangers, scared of being taken every single moment of the day..How about children who have spent months in care? I can not imagine. Why would someone think that lack of eye contact, or lack of parental skills, possible emotional harm in the future or supposed bad emotional attachment or occasional spanking can be worse than that? I dont get it. I have heard very few Norwegians analyzing this part. Of course there are some who understand the problem, but if you read the discussion, very few concentrate on this issue.

        • Pavla, there were some wise reactions on Costea´s observations from native Norwegian including Norwegian people (no, pornography is not watched at schools, children have no “free time when they are not restricted by parents at all” etc.

          I like this comment (Peter Costea is ideologist, not objective evaluator of Norwegian CPS or society). Have a nice day in Holland, I have never been there, but I think it is a nice country with nice people.:-):

          JP Paulsen I’m a Norwegian teacher, and a parent of a 12-year-old. My response is not going to be about Barnevernet, or whether they’re right or wrong. My response is going to be about some of the bizarre claims you make about Norway as a whole.

          If I weren’t born and raised in Norway, your report would have made me assume our king’s name was something like King Jong-un. Of course his name is Harald, and he doesn’t have anything to say when it comes to politics.

          While here, you took the trip from Oslo to Bergen, a stretch of road that slithers like a snake between some of Europe’s tallest mountains and most spectacular glaciers. Your conclusion? Norway has no freeways. I hereby invite you to spend a couple of your next 66.6 hours in Norway at my place. We could order some Big Macs from the McDonald’s next door, and spend the night counting cars passing by on the four lane freeway outside my living room window. You’ll be disappointed to know though, that I use central heating. Yes, we do have that here. It’s a shame, because ovens are so much cozier.

          I don’t know about the shopping mall in Bergen, but the one next door… never seen buckets there. But then again, Bergen goes by the name ‘City of Rain’, so it could be a tourist attraction.

          When reading your report, I get somewhat concerned that I’m not doing my job properly. See, over the last few years, I’ve had countless conversations with my pupils and their parents. And I don’t recall ever asking them about what they talk about when they eat dinner. Or what they eat and drink for dinner, for that matter. Myself, I usually serve my daughter pizza or pasta or tacos or whatever. Never tasted lutefisk, and we drink coke with every meal. More specifically Coke Zero (great taste, zero sugar), just in case Barnevernet should come knocking on our door…:-)

          Another reason why I’m starting to doubt whether I’m doing my job properly, is because I’ve never sent out any birthday invitations on behalf of my pupils. I’ve heard that some schools recommend that if you plan to hand out birthday invitations at school, you invite either all the girls or all the boys (or both) in your class to make sure no desk is left empty – to avoid bullying and social isolation. I think it’s a good idea; however, if you don’t, you could always hand out those invitations after school…

          Then there’s the pornography thing. «Starting at age twelve (12), they are shown pornography. At school.» What the h*ll? (Don’t worry, Hell is a national park in Norway. It actually is. Another proof of our fall from grace, I suppose.) My daughter is 12, and I don’t even think she knows what pornography is. But what do I know? Maybe her teachers have instructed her not to tell her parents… Anyway, last time I checked, the age limit for watching pornography in Norway is 18.

          Talking about law and justice: You claim that «unlike in the United States, Norway’s citizens are presumed guilty and not the other way around.» If that’s the case, how come you have an incarceration rate (prisoners per 100 000 population) of 698, and ours is 71? PS: ‘Making a Murderer’ (about the presumed guilty American Steve Avery) was a very popular series here…

          However, what puzzles me most about your report, is the sequence about how children, when they reach the age of 14, are supposedly required to have «free time» each day. «During the «free time» parents are not allowed to ask intrusive questions of the children, such as what are you doing, where are you going, what are you watching? Parents are also not allowed to ask their children questions related to their sexual lives or activities. During the «free hours» parents cannot assign any chores to the children. The «free time» is designed, I was told, to allow the teenagers to «discover themselves» and their «identity».» End of quote.

          I am shocked. I am a teacher and a parent, having lived my entire life in Norway, and I have never, ever, EVER heard about what you refer to as «free time». It seems to me that most teenagers spend their time off doing homework and on different activities such as soccer, gaming or even church groups. So I don’t know who told you this, but hey: I’ve been to your country a couple of times, as well. For more than 66.6 hours, by the way. (I did go on the Route 66 though!) And I’ve met a couple of… in lack of better words… weirdos there. They told me some strange things about your country. If it wasn’t for the fact that I’m a teacher, and am aware of – just like a lawyer should be – that you don’t make a judgement based on only hearing one side of the story (and may I add, in this case, a very doubtable story), I might have come back to Norway and produced a report like yours and made it look like the USA was North Korea. (Come on, you’ve got a lot of people imprisoned, death penalty, patriotism, double rainbows… and Donald Trump.) But it wouldn’t be honest, would it?

          The honest thing to do would be to do some serious research and listen to both sides before making a judgement. But you’re a lawyer, of course. And to lawyers, it’s never been about the truth. It’s always been about winning the case.

          You say we’re ungodly because we allow gays to marry and so on. I say it’s ungodly to lie.

        • Thank you Veronika, I like it here in Holland. But I no way think that its “more developped” than Czech Rep. for example. In some things sure, but others are not. As I was stating the shopping center here near to us, is in my opinion very outdated. The fact, that there is 1-2 little restrooms for the whole shopping center, where you have to pay (plus another one in the library if you are lucky and its not out of order).
          Parking is not for free and we talk about city of 150 000 ppl and this is not even in the center. So if Peter Costea would have visited our shopping center, he would probably be even more shocked 🙂

          Next to it, as I said, I think if he compares the customer service, opening hours, highways etc. to the US standard, than its probably less. I can tell you that Holland has a poor customer service if you compare it to the US.

          As I said, I have not paid much attention to this article and I don have intention to spread it either.

          I have never started this to target Norway as a country as whole, but more a system that is dysfunctional. When there are so many experts saying similar things and you hear the similar things from the parents (different parents, different cases) then something is wrong. These parents are willing to show the documentation, because they are desperate. I think it should not be like this. I am in particular worried about the procedures after the children are taken and everything that follows. Everybody should have a fair trial, even accused criminal, so why do these parents end up in a web of false claims and accusations, hidden ties between psychologists and CPS, CPS and CC etc. Do you agree that single (case) workers have to be held responsible when they lie and manipulate facts? When they make false claims? Why is it even , after the court has decided, that CPS made false claims on behalf of a child, that these are not held responsible. These are facts.

          These are the things everybody should focus on, not how many McDonalds and shopping centers Norway has. I could not care less about that one.

        • Veronika, you believe in an entity, a geneal idea. I.e. “Norwegians are above all critics. Anyone who criticize them is liar.” I believe Mr Costea is a thrustworthy person and he makes some very good points.

      • You haven’t been part of any legal case – neither have I. I have commented the effect earlier – it kills the sympathy for the family.

        Reply

        • Knut, answer seriously, do you think the Bodnariu would have gotten a fair process, do you think the Bodnariu would had their children home if they had absolutely no publicity? I dont know, I doubt that very much. You have seen the chief in Naustdal. According to the Bodnariu page, BV has made their intention clear very soon after the removal. That was before the massive protest started, if I am not wrong. But I would have to read the timeline again.

        • So, shut up or you’ll make them seem like you: haters, lunatics, religious fanatics, etc. Any victim deserves empathy and help. If everyone just takes a look and passes by… you must well know the gospel of the good samaritan.

    • Knut, it is easy to play the Almighty when the law is so permissive. Don’t forget, you are not “to do or die”, you are there TO SERVE AND PROTECT. May God give you His wisdom and decision to love people more than law. No reply needed.

      Reply

    •  
      Mr Nygaard: “How many times have I told you – -”

      Mr Nygaard is used to the people he speaks to being victims under his Barnevern service’s heel. He therefore expects no opposition, rather as if the very fact that he opens his mouth or takes his pen up automatically brings infallible “truth”.

      In real life when one does not have power over others, one’s “telling” will have to prove itself through evidence, comparative evidence, independently supporting facts etc. Only children and morons think they can get their way by interminably repeating many times, without any other support than one’s own “authority” as a Barnevern worker.

      Reply

    • No criminal is punished for what he might do but for what he did. It is against universal law principles. And yes, the nightmare those parents suffered was more a harsh “preventive punishment” than protection for their kids; as for the children, the healing of the traumas caused by such a brutal separation might be long, the harm has been done. And no one says “sorry”.
      In my opinion, Horne and her people should humbly recognize mistakes are possible end, when this happen, take their responsability for the harm done in the first place to innocent children. In her position, I’d make a careful survey of all those thousands of situations in which such an enormous power has been given to a bunch of people. True authority in educational matters and well being of children should come together with empathy, responsability, understanding, and not silly ideology like “we are the best, we know best, we are the most advanced society so everything we do is
      perfect…”

      Reply

    • Knut, the laws you cite are not very precise and just mention risk of violence in general. I guess it has to be because the lawmaker cannot foresee all situations and hence would like to add flexibility.
      Note that this is an option in the procedures to go for an emergency care order — not an obligation, especially with respect to any risk of any violence.
      Hence, the decision is at the deliberation of the officers.

      However, Child Welfare Act and the decisions by officers are all subject to European Convention of Human Rights which says in Article 8 that any intervention from the state has to be necessary in a democratic society.
      In case the officers make a wrong decision, and they cannot defend their decision on emergency care order before the court (finally before European Court for Human Rights) that is a gross violation of human rights and I would also add it is likely abuse of authority.

      “That this took so long is a question hard to answer,” — exactly. And it is also hard to answer what made barnevernet in Naustdal to change their minds. The details are hidden there, I would say, however international pressure was obviously playing a role here, and at the end the debate was spiraling out from the usual control (which is usually total silence) in Norwegian media.

      Again, it was you remembering both parties asked for peace in the settlement and you seem not to respect the call and telling allegations about the father which you also confirm that you cannot base on any factual evidence. Please stop telling about such allegations unless you have evidence for them.

      Reply

    • Spanking… that was no spanking, or something like that…. especially to the 4 month ages boy… they take the boy to X ray to convince themselves… stupid law, stupid people… only becouse they are christian.Shame on you Barnevernet and all of how agree with them

      Reply

    • Dear Knut,
      With NO CREDIBLE evidence of child abuse by the Bodnariu family, criminal charges should be brought against the government of Norway. What the norwegian government does is akin to CRIMES against humanity.

      Reply

  4. “An article in Dagbladet today is very critical toward the Norwegian media which has been a tacit bystander while CPS commits human rights violation.”
    It’s good to see some of the media finally speaking out, but I am wondering how many Norwegians routinely read this paper?

    Reply

    • This is just a commenter – it could be anyone of you – this one is a representative for “Forum for menn og omsorg” – Forum for men and care (daily care?) – if we google we find this page
      http://www.krisesenter.org/
      and a name
      Ole Texmo
      it’s an internet page led by one person and we don’t know more that this for the most part is about fathers and their situation after a divorce – according to the law about children and parents.
      This is a single man’s private obervations and opinions. The paper haven’t opened for commenting. Dagbladet seldom does. This is just a voice that for most people aren’t interesting – some fathers know this forum and page, but the common Norwegian has other things on the block – it’s nice weather and real summer in the air – for the day, but we don’t know for too long. The chronics – like Mrs. M – will possibly take this into her archieve.

      Reply

      • I looked at his facebook and there I found all the chronics. As I said – “he could be anyone of you”.

        Reply

        • Some corrections “all the chronics” – the right is some. He had a lot of media “friends” and that is not stupid if you want to achieve “something else”.

      • You are so off Knut.

        It is you, who manipulates.. you dare to call everybody chronic haters. Do you think all the people are the same, they say the same things? Of course not. Unfortunately some of the criticism is wrong and does not belong there. I wish someone could stop this kind of criticism, because it diverts the attention from the real critics, which is so much fundamental and important. Someone could think about the ties BV has with the psychologists and the county committee. Someone could look again at those psychological evaluations, how credible they are.. Someone should check, how BV works with families after the children were removed, what assistance do they provide to them? Yes especially these families need a lot of help to reunite.

        There are certainly all kind of social workers and I still do have faith that there are good social workers with good intentions. But the whole system is wrong. System that can cover up power abuse and allows these abuses to continue is wrong..Good social workers should be praised. The ones that make false observations and claims in the name of children and in the name of the parents, the ones that manipulate people to reach their goals, have to be held responsible. Its not possible that relatives are kept away from the children. Actually its a crime and many understand that already.

        Reply

        • Pavla: “Someone could think about the ties BV has with the psychologists and the county committee. Someone could look again at those psychological evaluations, how credible they are.. ”

          The same Ole Texmo has done a lot of exactly that, both general surveys of current literature and analysis of single cases.

      • ACtually Dagbladet did open for commenting, on their FB under Dagbladet meninger if you want to look. Some of the comments are not pretty though, mixing things together, but anyway..

        Now that I think about it, yes Daniel B. wrote about other claims as well, Veronika has stated it here a while ago.
        That is said, i do not believe it, I believe there is no more to the story than what we hear and these parents really are loving & caring.

        Reply

      •   
        The article in Dagbladet:
        Ole Texmo: Kritikken av barnevernet (The criticism of Barnevernet)
        hvorfor vil ikke media ta opp et av de alvorligste demokratiske problemene ved barnevernsaker på ulike nivåer? (Why won’t the media address one of the most serious democratic problems concerning Barnevern cases on different levels?)
        http://www.dagbladet.no/kultur/kritikken-av-barnevernet/60167453

        This is a very good article. Texmo takes up central points regarding Barnevernet itself, their and their psychologists’ lack of scientifically based knowledge, the way the media has for years not covered this properly, although it is not rocket science at all.
        My characterisation is that the writer is like a hammer jumping (elegantly) from nail to nail, never failing to hit each one squarely on the head.

        Ole Texmo is not at all unknown in discussions of child protection and child custory disputes. He has been writing since early in the 1990s, very solidly for most of the time. He has a great deal of insight in how Barnevernet works and a solid grasp of what moves in the relevant “circles”.
          

        Reply

  7. i was just reading on the federalist….that naomi and eleana …had been placed in a foster home with a woman who had a live in boyfriend….as well…..the living arrangements included three other foster children and one of those was a 17 year old male….

    statistics indicate that the risk of sexual abuse in foster care goes up significantly when the primary caregiver only lives with her partner … no marriage….and even higher when an older male child is part of the foster care “family”….

    this is shocking….!!!!

    barnevernet can continue to parrot “in the best interests of the child”…as much as it likes……but as the facts continue to come out….one can only conclude that barnevernet is a lawless reckless organization that needs to be disbanded altogether….

    once again…..thank you God that those children will be brought home to where they are truly loved…and can feel safe again within their natural biological family…and the greater extended family of aunts …uncles…and grandparents….

    i can never view norway the same again…..

    candace green

    Reply

    • Candace,

      The amount the BV pays would put this couple way high in the Middle Upper class in America. I wonder how much their tax code allows them to keep? I don’t need an answer to this question. Just sayin’….

      Reply

      • Taxes are very high, it is true. But the money fosterers are paid is usually split up: so much for the work, so much “compensation” for such-and-such, and this is tax free, then an extra paid holiday by the Mediterranean, then an extra week-end holiday AWAY from the foster child, as “relief”, while the foster child is packed off to another foster place. They sometimes arrange a “ring” of foster parents, say 8 such couples, for 6 foster children, so that 2 of the couples at a time can be free of their foster child. In a case in which I was a witness and read all the documents too, Barnevernet had just such a scheme they wanted this foster child in, “because he was so unruly and difficult” that foster parents could not cope having him around all the time. Aha, a difficult teenager? No, he was 5 years old.

        Reply

        • “Aha, a difficult teenager? No, he was 5 years old.”

          I’ll take a guess, Marianne. This is child that was taken at birth and was put into a very bad environment in his early years.

          Thank you for the financial information.

          Two thoughts:

          “Is it a wonder that second generation CPS kids now grown would like such an arrangement?”

          and

          “How can such a system continue to support itself?”

        • ” Aha, a difficult teenager? No, he was 5 years old.”

          Two comments here:
          1. there might be difficult 5-year-old children, especially if they had been victims of severe violence. I really mean severe.
          2. that’s why all the foster industry is more interested in taking children from normal families? With those children they will have no difficulties (except for parents bringing BV’s decision to court but this is BV’s issue and not really issue for the industry)

        •   
          Chris: “I’ll take a guess, Marianne. This is child that was taken at birth and was put into a very bad environment in his early years.”

          No, he had been taken from his mother and his grandmother a couple of years earlier and all the time longed for them. There had been a decision in a County Committee that he was to be taken, the mother took him and fled home to her mother in another part of the country. She naively thought they would be left in peace when they were no longer in the big city. But of course Barnevernet had them traced, alerted the local Barnevern and police where they were, these came for them one they when they were out in the forest berry-picking, the police ran after the little boy and grabbed him. He was terrified. It was a regular manhunt.

          He was put in a foster home and later, when the foster mother got pregnant and they no longer wanted anything to do with this unmanageable boy, he was put in an institution where they locked him in every night. Barnevernet tried to pretend that there was nowhere he could live and that they were “working on it”. At one visitation the boy, very unhappy with this, said sadly to his grandmother, “Maybe I could live with you, Gran?” – It took two sessions in court, almost a year apart, to get him free. Barnevernet then wanted to keep him on for months while they would “get him gradually used to his mother and grandmother”. His mother’s lawyer fetched him immediately and went with them on the train to make sure that Barnevernet or the police did not grab him again with delaying tactics and stay orders. Long after he had come home he had panic attacks if anybody took a key in their hand – he was still afraid of being locked in.
            

        • Jasper: “2. that’s why all the foster industry is more interested in taking children from normal families? With those children they will have no difficulties (except for parents bringing BV’s decision to court but this is BV’s issue and not really issue for the industry)”

          Exactly. Perhaps not “no difficulties”, but at least not so great. Well brought up children are more used to being polite and do as they are instructed to do by adults in charge.

        • That is a horrible story Marianne. I am glad the boy is back in his family, but the trauma will lasts forever..

          But I find something interesting in what you said. So if the court decides that the child has to come back, then BV can still decide on how long the reunification must take? Or how is that? In that case, if parents dont agree, they have a decision of the court, so they can go and take the child immediately? In this case the child always wanted to go back, as you said, he surely did not need time to get slowly adapted in his own family.

        • Pavla: If there is a court decision, they must return the children without delay.

          If they fail to do so, you can ask police for help: do a house search in BV office to find out the address and go to the address and take the child for you.

          A court judgement/order is stronger than BV’s decision, and makes BV’s original decision not valid any more.

          What BV could do is to start a new procedure. However they need to have very strong evidence if they do not want to face a criminal case for abuse of authority.

        •   
          Paula and Jasper:
             Barnevernet could appeal the case to the Appeal Court. They also, all the time, try to invent difficulties and new “facts” which may make their case stronger in the appeal instance. In this case they did not appeal. I suppose they didn’t find it worth while.
             But the laws are also stretchable. You get that kind of legislation once quack psychology takes charge of people’s thinking, and it certainly has done when it comes to “in the best interest of the child”. Sweden is the worst.
            

        • Is it still possible to appeal after a signed settlement???
          I guess settlement is moving the case out of the court and case is closed completely (unless some parties who should have been part of the settlement were missing — a missed party could go and appeal of course — hard to imagine any missing party from the settlement this case).

        • Marianne, I heard that BV can appeal with stay order, meaning the child still stays at the foster parents. I dont know if they can do it in the case that the court has decided, or only in cases where CC has decided?
          That is the case of Norwegian – Slovak girl, she is still in the foster care even though CC decided that the girl should return home.

          And I know Veronika will immediately come here and say, that we have not seen the decision of the CC. Well what we know is that the girl was snatched because of lack of eye contact (mother is deaf and was a foster child herself) and the family refused to move to some mother & child center and has invited the biological grandmother to help. We also know that BV was paying unannounced visits to the family. Now the girl is still in care even after the CC decision back in Feb/March. The visitation is once in the 3 weeks. What does have to happen now, since BV has appealed with stay order and the child is still in care..do they need a new court?

        • “No, he had been taken from his mother and his grandmother a couple of years earlier and all the time longed for them.”

          Thank your for sharing your knowledge, Marianne. It is much appreciated.

          So, the child had already made strong biological connections when he was taken. Your description of this case makes it easy to understand why the child was so hard to control.

          I am so glad to hear that he is home. It will be a long time before he is back to normal. Hopefully, the trauma wasn’t so great that it effects his development of many kinds. There is no question that he will remember this experience, at the hands of the CPS, for life.

        • Jasper: “Is it still possible to appeal after a signed settlement???”
          I suppose you are right it isn’t. But the CPS are masters of opening a new case in not too long a time. They can get someone to cough up a message of “worry”.

        • Starting a new case is of course an option for them — and should be, because there might be evil cases, where new evidence might come after…

          However it is crystal clear that a new case is not part of this settlement and there was no promise on being silent about any new case.

          And BV could easily cross a red line of their responsibility due to penal code.
          In case of a new case is brouhgt against a family which turns out to be fabricated and it turns out that barnevernet stuff have known or should have known that it was fabricated, I would recommend to report grounded suspicion of abuse of authority to the police if there is a family suffering from such fabricated cases.

      • Barnevernet is interested in taking children from normal families for they are “marketable”, “adoptable”. They see the children as products.

        Reply

        • That is my suspicion is about.
          Still on the boundary of being a conspiracy theory.

          However I guess no one else than the Norwegian Government can have a real chance to double check for corruption for example by doing some selective tax audits. Even investigative journalism has little chance (unless someone starts leaking).

          The whole story could be and should be catched in the courts. Families might need good attorneys
          – to get judges to try to resolve controversies among expert opinions
          – to tell the judge that the expert asked by BV could be biased (from a similar service provider, interested in getting as many cases through as possible)
          The concern letter from last year does not promise too much good for either families who are fighting with unjustified care orders or for Norwegian society as a whole.

  8. Oops, when I taught that Knut got some common sense he is starting again with criticism of the ones that a good normal Christian will admire. Sorry Knut I was right that you don’t deserve any respect. You the same as all the workers working for Children poaching system of Norway called Barnevernet. When you’re going to show some respect after all? A whole world is wrong and The Children poaching system of Norway is right? Shame on you and the whole system that you are enslaved by for giving such a bad name to millions of good Norwegian people. If I didn’t know so many I may think bad about them too, and is not right. Ten bad apples of Barnevernet. I try to disassociate Barnevernet from Norway for being such a dark spot in such a beautiful county. Go away Knut.

    Reply

    • I am not the postmaster on this page – Mr. Prunean is. I have just commented his post where he for n’te time give airy information. I think the agreement should have come moths ago and I know that I comment and must tell some truth into the movement I am not as most of you others. It’s Mr. Prunean that still uses the B’s as ammunition and fuel. He could have kept his eyes on the opinions from Mr. Texmo and then we had a possibility to relax to “Pompel and Pilt”.

      Reply

  10. There are many more, how about Cecilie? For her we should fight this system as well, and Eva? Her case does not look good at all..
    Or a little Norwegian Slovak girl , that is still in foster care, eventhough the CC decided that the child should go home. Vibeke and her boys. There are so many trapped..

    Reply

  11. “That this took so long is a question hard to answer, but it’s very seldom the criminal case ain’t closed before the CPS find an agreement to send the children home. We don’t know what especially the father have done to them – we know something about the spanking part, but the rest seems hidden.”

    Kurt, buddy, stop insulting our intelligence. Show me a case where the investigation never took years. In fact that is exactly the REASON so many and I mean tens of thousands of parents are outraged at Barnevernet. They never find the parents innocent. If it weren’t expossed, this case would have been on of the thousands that are forgotten by the vile and corrupt system that you have allowed in your country. You always assume people are guilty and they are supposed to prove themselves innocent with the pathetic “helping hand” you throw at them in the form of state appointed attorneys which will lose their salaries if they don’t make Barnevernet to come on top.
    Just face the facts that the system is purposely designed to remove children from immigrants and given to norvegians especially nonchristians to condition them in the hedonistic ways of the Norwegian society of our days.
    Stop attempting to explain that your laws are correct. You will not find anyone siding with you. The truth is out and proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. You lost. And get lost.

    Reply

  12. Pingback: Barnevernet Boss Comments on the Bodnariu Case | ARMONIA MAGAZINE - USA

  13. And of course Solveig Horne is glad.
    For two reasons.

    1. Peace in media means the details of the story of the past months will not really go into public
    2, By settlement barnevernet could most likely avoid losing at court and being obligued to pay compensation for unjustified emergency care order

    Of course she is glad. Not a surprise.

    Reply

    • I did not want to tell that these were the only reasons for Horne being glad. But these are I guess important reasons fot the minister supervising barnevernet…

      Reply

  15. According to a lawyer for the family, this outcome was reached after four days of hearings before the five-person county board. On the fourth day, the board encouraged lawyers for both sides to come to a settlement, but they were initially unable to do so. Finally, on Friday, Barnevernet got the hint that the board would likely rule against them. They agreed to drop the case, relinquishing their object of keeping the Bodnariu children in foster care until adulthood. Some of the children will finish out the school year in their foster homes, but the family will be fully reunited by mid-June.

    “We are overwhelmed with excitement and indescribable feelings of happiness, to know that the children are finally coming home,” a close family friend told me.

    http://thefederalist.com/2016/06/06/under-international-pressure-norway-reunites-seized-children-with-family/

    Reply

    • Very valuable information, Pavla. Thank you for that link! Such a clear and necessary article.
         So the proceedings in the County Board / Committee actually took place. AND the CC did their job of trying to get a voluntary agreement. AND they had made the municipality face facts before the municipality would even start being reasonable.
         Interesting.
        

      Reply

      • You are welcome Marianne, I thought I have to share this one. Your guess was a spot on as usual.
        I hope, that now is everybody convinced that BV in Naustdal had bad intentions from start to the end with the children. Although I am not sure that certain people will get convinced even after this..

        Reply

        •   
          Yes, I feel absolutely like the oracle at Delphi, getting quite above myself! (Forgive me for being light-hearted for once. We need some relief in this miserable swamp of cruelty and stupidity.)

          But another thing I think at least as important in that article, is this:
          “Indeed, as the Bodnariu children return home, their parents will certainly face the challenge of helping them transition and heal from the deep trauma of the past seven months—stolen months of their childhood that are likely to impact their entire lives.”

          It is about time that somnambulist Norwegians, too, started waking up to how very, very serious it is to take children from their families like that and keep them away. It subjects them to a stress which takes a hard toll on their bodily health. (There are scientific studies showing e.g. an elevated incidence of breat cancer in women who as girls were deprived of a parent.) In a child’s life, a month is eternity. And it may take years for the children to feel secure again. Jan Simonsen recently wrote about a French couple in Norway whose children, just like the Bodnarius, just didn’t come home from school one day. After a long, long fight and two weeks’ of jail with suspended sentence for having spanked the children, the two youngest at last came home, while the oldest girl remained with fosterers.
          This mother, Jaqueline, says to the French telegram bureau that even now, a couple of years after, the two children get scared if anyone as much as knocks on the door. They immediately fear that they will be taken away again.

    • So it is now public with evidence what almost everyone thought before…
      It was pretty obvious from what is available that Naustdal Barnevernet simply tried to minimize the harm on themselves.

      Reply

  16. “Go away. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here…”

    It is nice to come to a place where I don’t have to hit “shift” and “enter” to start a new paragraph. Is there a reason why FB does that? Actually, I think I’ve figured that out; please don’t answer.

    I am refreshed, seriously. I thought maybe people would go away as Ms. Horne is wishing. Well, I had the day off and I spent quite a good amount of time on Facebook and I must say that people are not going away. In fact, with the social media protest “over,” it doesn’t look over. This topic is being discussed in places today where I’ve not seen it discussed. The French can’t believe what they are hearing. Many Germans will be hearing of this story if they haven’t already because of a case which was recently reported on this blog. Today, I “talked” the man who almost had his children taken away and is now living in Germany. In fact, he made one of the more diplomatic comments that I have seen today and he has just been through a trauma that he and his family will never forget. The Americans are waking up as one of their own has had a young child taken from her and the American embassy does nothing. People are not happy with this. The internet is beginning to buzz with this story. It is as good as the final days of the social media protest.

    Yes, I am refreshed and thankful. I come here and the battle seems like it is just beginning. This is what I have prayed for. Many places that haven’t been aware of this issue are finding out about it. I saw many “new faces” in the comments on Facebook today. There are a few here that I don’t recognize and I’ve been here a bit.

    And then there’s Knut. He is doing his job to the best of his ability and there are so many questions he can’t even get to the very good ones that Octavian asked at the top of this thread.

    Well, Knut’s best hasn’t changed any minds in his favor that I’ve seen, here or on Facebook. In my view, his coworkers, Veronika and Yspot have also been unable to change any opinions. And now new opinions are coming at them.

    In Norway, the Barnevernet is still the Goliath as things on the ground haven’t changed. Things in the air, however, seem to be giving hope to the thousands left who have been without hope for so long. They know the conversation isn’t over. They can watch Facebook even though they can’t comment because they are afraid of the long reach of their foe. One day, maybe soon, they will rise up together and storm the fortified city just like Joshua did at Jericho.

    I would like to thank Cristina and Mona for all of their hard work on the social media protest. They used Jericho as their template. Did anyone notice that the protest lasted seven days? That was no mistake. Seven days and the walls came tumbling down. We want no violence, however, as we are now in the new covenant. What we want is justice. Those who have been responsible for crimes against humanity must face a fair court. Witnesses, and there are plenty, will need to be selected. And the trials must begin. We will give those who denied others due process just that.

    I am encouraged because I know that, in the end, God’s will will be done. The criminals will eventually be held accountable no matter what appears to our eyes here.

    Yes, I am refreshed and thankful. God is good and in the end good will triumph over evil.

    This battle is just beginning. And I am glad.

    Reply

  17. Oh, I forgot Spain. I just asked someone in Spain who liked one of my comments to be my friend. The organization she works for there has 90 million likes on its FB page. Maybe she can contact a few of her friends. I hope she friends me.

    Reply

  20. I have found a pretty interesting page on the Norge web… I was trying to understand it by Google translate but I have doubts if it was interpreted well:

    https://www.fo.no/nyheter/regjeringen-vil-endre-barnevernet-article12161-1064.html

    as far as I understand: work union is complaining on already too high workload
    but the government wants to give more money and generate even more workload?

    this sounds controversial in itself, not to mention the international context…

    Reply

    •   
      Yes, FO (Fellesorganisasjonen) is the union of social workers etc. They always want more money, because that means more employees and higher wages.
        They also want legislation to forbid us to write about concrete cases, forbid us to give the names of the social workers in cases, give the names of fosterers (although many fosterers themselves write and also give interviews where they praise Barnevernet and recomment becoming foster parents).

      Reply

      • Interestingly, they complain on high workload… why the hell wants the government to generate even more workload then?

        Reply

        • Can anyone explain me why “Norwegian law” was not applied in that particular rape case? According to Knut, Norwegians don’t care about laws you have in your native country, they judge you according to Norway’s laws. If law in Norway says spanking is a crime, you are punished accordingly. What does Norwegian law say about commiting rape to a minor? Does it say “any group of men who rapes a minor girl will receive 180 days community work as a punishment?” Why then these criminals were judged according to “jungle’s law” or to their home countries’ laws?

  21. Pavla, you said that rape is a serious crime in Norway. Please click on the links I inserted in this article:

    https://saltmin.com/2016/01/12/octavian-d-curpas-revoltator-ce-pedepse-primesc-norvegienii-care-violeaza-minore/

    Knut said here many times: “We don’t care what laws you have in Romania or Czechia. Once you are in Norway, the Norwegian laws are applied”. Well it seems like they don’t take into account your background when it comes to spanking but they do it when it’s a case of rape. Therefore, it seems like spanking is a more serious crime in Norway than raping a 13 old girl. Parents that spank their children are not forgiven but criminals that brutally raped in group this innocent girl were forgiven. Can any of you imagine what would you feel if your daughter were raped and criminals not prosecuted, no jail time, just work for the community?

    Reply

    • Octavian I think it was someone else. I have no clue what official charges are for rape in Norway. What I was wondering is if they really got community works for rape and how old they are. This is of course horrible.
      And of course rape is about 100 times worse than occasional spanking. Everybody understands that.

      Reply

      • Octavian and Paula (mostly):
           (I haven’t looked up the legislation or recent judgments about punishment for crime.) The Norwegian attitude to crime, such as rape, does not hang together all that well, I don’t think. When a perpetrator is himself a minor, the attitude and attention shifts away somewhat from sympathy with the victim to feeling sorry for the perpetrator, because “Poor him, what made an innocent boy turn to something like that?” The most likely “explanation” of a proportion of the general population, as well as that of a larger part of the legal establishment, will be that no doubt, his parents were nasty to him, so he can’t be blamed, because he just did what he had himself experienced. Or something like that.
           Then the perpetrator may be put into therapy, which can be of different sorts, but mostly concentrated on him and his needs, not on what he has done.

        Reply

        • Are you serious Marianne? That is weird
          Anyway in the article Octavian mentioned, they were all (I think) 18 years and older, which makes them adult. In that case its even more twisted that they got only community works for a horrible crime like this. As I read it, it, she was raped repeatedly in different places , drugged etc. Here for sure the punishment did not fit the crime.

        • “They got 6 months community work as a punishment.”

          I was reading through the rest of the thread and found this. Thank you, Octavian for some good detective work.

          It should be clear to all why Octavian has brought up this story.

          I understand that, within any country, there will be huge variations in decisions on similar cases by judges usually in different parts of the country.

          I think that most decisions regarding certain issues made by the BV can also be very different. Way too different. In one place, a decision about the consequences of “violence” can be a slap on the wrist. In another place, it can be a decision similar to the Bodnariu decision, which we know of CPS intentions. The children were going to be taken from the parents and split up into 5 different foster homes. There are so many poor decisions made by the Norwegian CPS that something has to be done. I have come to the conclusion that the entire system needs to be shut down, a new system with all new retrained personnel with a different philosophy of how one looks at humanity should replace it, fair trials need to be held for crimes against humanity, and reparations should be made to victims. Changes need to be made from the highest position to the lowest. I think the new system would save Norway a huge amount of unwarranted expenses now accrued by incredible decisions.

          The differences in the crime/punishment of the Bodnariu case compared to the crime/punishment in this case of which you speak, Octavian, is quite disturbing.

          The crime you have brought up, Octavian, would be judged much differently in my state. An educated guess of such punishment for a crime where I live would be anywhere from 20 years in prison without the possibility of parole to 10 years in prison with possible early release due to good behavior.

        • Octavian: “Knut, I cannot forget the group of Muslim in Norway who raped a girl and they got 6 months community work as a punishment.”

          Octavian: “Marianne, my examples showed something else:
          1) Why we are criticizing Norway. I showed that …. ”

          Pavla: “Are you serious Marianne? That is weird. Anyway in the article Octavian mentioned, they were all (I think) 18 years and older, which makes them adult.”

          I am not at all trying to justify it. I am saying there is a rather pervasive attitude of turning things upside-down and feeling that in doing so, one is showing a “deeper” understanding of psychology and society than the “usual” one. Being mild and “understanding” towards wrong-doers and paternalistically looking down on people who show fury or upset over such injustice, is considered to show how advanced in understanding and culture one is, I suppose.
             Added to this general attitude, there is a clear fear of being branded as insufficiently understanding to Muslims.

    • Octavian, it is not very reliable source of information as I can see. The title of the article is strongly biased and ignorant. I don´t know this case from mainstream media? I suppose it´s so called hoax (false informtion) I do know that rapist have been rather severly in Norwegian society (partly due to strong feminism and restrictive moral in relation to these cases. It´s even illegal to buy sex in Norway…). I can give you a recent example:

      http://www.newsinenglish.no/2016/05/25/rapist-gets-norways-toughest-jail-term/

      Norwegian policy concerning crime and punishmnet work rather well. They pay attention to some rehabilitation and educative measures and they were able to avoid high rate of recidivism:

      ” On top of that, when criminals in Norway leave prison, they stay out. It has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20%. The US has one of the highest: 76.6% of prisoners are re-arrested within five years.”

      Read more here: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12

      Reply

      • Oh, I´m sorry for some missing words and mistakes in my previous answer. I was writing fast without checking the content.

        Reply

        • Octavian , excuse me, but you did not give me a link of an article which would have been published in Nordic mainstream media about the Muslims rapists (serious media in Norway: Aftenposten, Nrk news, Dagbladet, maybe Verdens Gang).. Your source (frieord.no) doesn´t represent serious voice in Norwegian debate. Another strange website with strong ideological bias (against minorities, support for Trump etc.) I would say Unfortunately, we can´t check their credibility. It´s just my opinion.

        • Pavla, I feel sorry for that altough I don´t know the details of the case and the evidence. It seems that the evidence was weak to judge this crime as gang rape:

          “The three men were initially charged with gang rape, which carries a maximum sentence of 21 years in prison.

          When Attorney Cecilie Schloss Moller would withdraw indictment, she said, however, that the evidence just kept to the first paragraph of this section for sexual relations with children under sixteen years.

          At the trial last day took the matter a third turn when the prosecutor and the police prosecutor Sturla Henriksbø overturned state prosecution indictment to apply the second paragraph of the same section – that the acts were committed in a particularly offensive manner.” (google translator ). So they were charged with sex with a girl under age of consent (which is 16 years in Norway). I don´t know if they appealed the verdict, but I hope so.
          It was unusual mild punish according to the lawyers and police opinion, so I think the girl would deserve better treatment and acknowledgment of her suffering. The Court decisions could be crazy in every country- and it is the strenght of the evidence that counts.

  23. Interesting conclusions about the spirit of Norwegian laws presented by Knut:

    If a group of people from Romania moves to Norway and spanked their chidren they are not pardoned for in Romania spanking is not a crime.

    If a group of people from Middle East moves to Norway and rape some kids they are pardoned for they claim that in their country raping kids is not a crime.

    My question: aren’t the kids in that community in immediate danger with a rapist next door to them?

    This irrational Norwegian judgment tells me that they do not confiscate children for they care about their best interest yet because kids generate more activity (money) for Barnevernet’s employees and other lazy people in Norway, which are not capable to find a real job.

    Reply

    • If I would have read further, I may not have made my comment above, Octavian. You have a good question.

      I think I also have a good question and I would like to get an answer on it before I make another comment on Ms. Solberg’s FB page. I hope you see this Marianne because I think you would be the best source here. I know that many individuals prophet off the the current CPS system. I would like to know if the system, which I have stated many times as being inhumane, is making any money for the country. I have gotten information from another source that the CPS system is very costly to Norway. Do you have any information on this, Marianne?

      Reply

      • No, it does not make any money for the country. I think the annual cost is at least some 20 billion crowns, ≈ 2 point something billion dollars. I doubt whether that covers all expenses, probably depends on where such-and-such appears in the accounts system.

        Reply

        • 1)
          Here is something typical: A municipality is in trouble over its budget: They have no money for clearing away the snow if it falls before the new year (new budgets in 2017). But they have no objection to giving more to Barnevernet. What Barnevernet does they are obliged by law to pay for, but not real services for the citizens like making the roads passable. (The “state” roads are to be cleared on a national level, the municipal responsibility is for municipal roads. Even so, municipal roads are needed locally in people’s daily lives.)
          http://www.eub.no/nyheter/ikke-penger-til-sno-for-nyttar

          2)
          When discussing money, you should be aware of a terminological difference between Norwegian and English – I don’t know if Google Translate captures it correctly:

          Norw. “million” – Eng.  “million”
          Norw.  “milliard” –  Eng. “billion”
          Norw,  “billion”  –  Eng.  “trillion”
          and so on.

        • Do municipalities audit Barnevernet spendings, or can they trigger such an audit?
          Do municipalities have anything to do with County Committee or any authority supervising Barnevernet?
          If I was living in such a place I would ask municipality eldermen to look into the details behind those numbers, at least by audits on some randomly picked cases. Or I would not vote on them and on their parties in the next 30 years.

        • “They have no money for clearing away the snow if it falls before the new year (new budgets in 2017). But they have no objection to giving more to Barnevernet.”

          Maybe they will have to pull back on some of their “help” services, Marianne.

    • We in the CPS have nothing to do with rapists – they are taken to court and further to imprisonment if ,,,,

      Here is a story about a dancer that is convicted to 21 years of detension after been found guilty of raping 16 women, one rapist attempt and abuse of his former partner – in Norwegian context this mean that he is sent to detension for about 10 years if behaviour is considered ok.

      https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen/_-kopseng-saken-savner-sidestykke-i-rettshistorien-1.12900492

      We in Norway have a naive helper attitude to those imprisoned and for some a change come, but the punishing part is not frightening enough – especially our new arrivers found our punishments far too light.

      Our .. future minister of justice.. if socialist block win the next election – Pakistan of origin – Hadia Tajic – a short time ago visited Houston and shared some time with a prisoner on Death Row. His crime was done … as I remember it … in 1993,

      https://tv.nrk.no/serie/paa-bortebane/KMTE50005114/sesong-1/episode-1

      On the other side we don’t understand your legal system either – here is a story about a Norwegian that risked 35 years of prisonment for driving a rented car in a way that might be considered a deadly weapon – driving the car in the wrong direction in a one way street.

      http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/usa/nordmann-kjoerte-feil-risikerer-35-aars-fengsel/a/10073343/

      Reply

        • Delight, I seriously doubt that Breivik will ever be released. In fact, I think that he got life in prison, I dont understand why the court did not make exception in his case and stated it immediately. I am sure they will do it before the end of his sentence.

        •   
          Pavla: “Yes, but I hope that in his case he will never be free? I can not imagine they will release him…”

          Everybody agrees about Breivik, and there is another kind of sentence than regular “life imprisonment”, called “forvaring” (preventive detention), and this is what Breivik got. It makes it possible not to release a prisoner until he is deemed no longer to be a danger or likely to commit new crimes. An evaluation to prolong imprisonment under “preventive detention” has to be re-evaluated every 5 years.
             I did not mean to say that Breivik is likely to be released, I meant to make it clear that the ordinary “life” sentence in Norway is not at all for life.

        • About early release and reviews on life terms, European Court for Human Rights has a little strange and awkward approach.
          Of course if there is some new evidence suggesting the judgement was made in error, things are to be reviewed…however ECHR asks for reviews of the life term sentences even without such new evidence.

    • I would recommend you not to belive everything what is spreading on the net. I found this story about Muslims only on obscure web pages, not in serious media (BBC, The Economist, The Times, FAZ, Der Spiegel, Le Monde etc., etc…).

      Reply

    • This is mafia – the super romanian way

      The CPS in Norway is a public service – a help to and for … some.

      Reply

        • I think this movement have a need for a language change and they have in their frontline a language professor. We in the CPS is a municipal public service – we are doing an important and necessary job, but there are a lot of conspiracies in the supporterteam that no one with some kind of knowledge to Norway, Norwegians and the CPS bother to modify. Instead they use this lack of knowledge to distribute their personal opinions of Norway, Norwegians and the CPS. There is a great lack of true information in this movement. “Mafia” is just another word on the list in the competition to find the worst name. We have no mafia in Norway yet, but the criminality is raising and the naivity is still ruling the ground in “Kardemomme by”.

        • Gro Hillestad Thune, attorney and expert on human rights issues

          – We can see that within the CPS developed authoritarian, closed systems and cultures that exposes children and vulnerable families for authority abuse. We also hear that parents whose children are associated health challenges, with diagnoses such as Asperger, Tourette Syndrome and ADHD, too often not met with support and respect for its demanding task, but instead deprived child.
          ===============================================================
          This is the real problem Knut, not some conspiracy theories. This is what everybody should worry about..

        • “This is the real problem Knut, not some conspiracy theories. This is what everybody should worry about..”

          Exactly that is the point, and it is not an issue for Knut primarily but for Barnevernet leaders, Bufdir, Ministry (up to Soveign Horne) and I would say it is already also on whole Government level now due to the failure to respond to the concern letter in a timely manner so far.

          However I can see the Norwegian Government and the mainstream media mostly trying to focus on the conspiracy theories, just in order to escape responding to the real problem. (Honestly I think even Peter Costea has not realized yet this — he does some early conclusions and that is just like pouring oil on the fire. He could be much more wise than that as a lawyer).

      • Do not be confused Knut this is a Gipsy Mafia that act the same way in every country. I heard same things in USA about Gipsy Mafia. At least we call them by their name but your mafia is not on TV. Every news media or onest citizen is afraid to say anything about your well funded mafia. I guess not all, only the so called activists have to courage to tell the truth about Norwegian Mafia. Take a walk Knut, would you? You are a disgrace Knut trying to confuse people about the Romanians. Better learn about the Romanian heritage and founders. I am proud to be one of them by adoption.

        Reply

        • I must say, Aristotel, that the Romanians have stepped up to the plate on this subject.

          Do you have any idea why it is mostly the protestant Romanians and not the Orthodox Romanians that have been involved?

        • Chris,
          Is the difference between being dead and alive for the majority of them. I know their rituals and faith. My grandfather was a devoted Orthodox looking forward for the opportunity to read the Bible. Having under his shoulder to clean and to take care of the church he found the Holy Book unlocked one Sunday afternoon and ended reading The Bible until next day. He told to his friends that the priest doesn’t preach what’s written in the bible and they been looking for God in a wrong place. Starting to stay home with his friends and reading the Bible and finding the true God with few families made the priest really mad. In one winter night being followed by the priest good servants, two of them, he ended unconscious under a bridge with broken bones and ribs. Couldn’t walk home. He pulled himself with his elbows for around 2 miles on a heavy snow. He was a very powerful man but he did stay behind so his friends won’t get hurt. When his close families of friends were stopping by his house for a time of prayer the priest told his servants that the black sheep were getting together for cursing prayers. Nothing like that happens amongst God’s people. One day he met his enemies at the store in center of the village and pledged for them to come and enjoy God’s love and presence with a open heart and they cursed him again. Next spring when they took their horses for a ride and trying to cool off in a very nice spring water lake the horses start fighting and they felt down in the water. Several days they looked for their bodies to end finding them deep under mud at the bottom of the lake. So after that they enjoyed freedom from being persecuted by the orthodox Church. So was born one of God’s church in Dersca, Botoșani.

        • That explains it for that church and maybe more like it, but the entirety of the Orthodox are not interested in Justice? It is hard to imagine that some wouldn’t come to the aid of a child in need. Thank you for sharing your story, Aristotel.

        • Chris my brother, look at the value of the person in relationships with God, so you won’t be surprised by his actions. I was talking in my story about the birth of Christianity in Romania long time ago when the orthodox Church had governmental power. The school system was lead by the Orthodox Church and Christians treated very bad. The priest was sending the Christians in prison and the children in school were persecuted staying on their knees on walnut shells and getting beat without any mercy.

        • You have educated me about Orthodox Christianity in your experience, Aristotel. As I am not very familiar with that church and as I have had limited experience with it, your statement will be in my mind with the thought that there must be Orthodox people who would want to change a cruel system (even though you have described this system as such) if they had a chance. I think there are has to be some good in someone within any church because they were created in the image of God. Does that make what they believe right? Of course it doesn’t. My hope would be maybe 5% of the Romanian Orthodox would join us in our efforts to rid the world of things like Norway’s CPS.

        • There are among the orthodox believes a fraction being called The army of God where the orthodox priest exercised wisdom and didn’t outcast or accept them for a reson or other that proved to be good Christians suffering for God by being in prison or killed by the communist regime. Search for the name Traian Dorz or Brother Moldoveanu to find more about. The last one composed the most beautiful Christian Songs in prison in communist time. Read about his life to understand about the life of the true Christians in Romania. There are thousands other. If you are interested I will tell you about. I lost my brother being killed and I escaped being close to loose my life being 24/7 under surveillance without the right of taking my vacation or go anywhere without reporting. God bless you.Chris.

        • “when has a Mafia become a … public service?”

          Knut: look at Italy in the past century… Mafia has had police under their influence at many places…

          and there is some suspicion (not fact, a suspicion) that Barnevernet at least at a significant number of municipalities is being biased in favour of the private service providers.
          There are several evidence suggesting this, the major ones are:
          1. the high number of emergency care orders per year per capita — so that even Parliamentary Assembly of Council of Europe seems to be concerned about that.
          2. the way the concern letter mentioned many times is being handled by Norwegian Government.
          3. documented cases where Barnevernet won in court after not succeeding to fabricate evindence, dropping the allegations due to foster children are being too attached to foster families
          4. crazy reasons for emergency care orders, well documented also by Marianne Haslev Skanland, with witnesses, and further media covered cases.

          We have no evidence like evidence on bribes and of course there are limited resources for anyone except for the Norwegian Government to investigate all these.
          In summary: the whole story of emergency care orders in Norway is smelling bad and the smoke seems to get bigger and bigger…

  26. Pingback: Barnevernet Boss Comments on the Bodnariu Case | Pastor Ciprian Barsan

  27. You have to go to the Shanghai Daily to read about the Barnevern authorities being taken to task at a meeting in Oslo. You see in this article the typical Norwegian press, sticking (suspiciously like Minister Horne’s next-in-command Mr Terning), like an old-fashioned gramophone record with a dent, to domplaining that media abroad misunderstand everything and try to vilify Barnevernet.

    “As he sees it, although facts have been presented well in the press worldwide, some of the foreign reports did not give a real picture about Barnevernet.
        “With all due respect, there has been a lot of nonsense written about Barnevernet abroad. We need to stop demonizing Barnevernet in media,” Jensen said.”

    This is all they are concerned about. Business as usual, the press does not intend to change the way they (do not) tackle the realities of Barnevernet.

    Even Thomas Ergo, who wrote the Glass Girl story, once again says that more information FROM BARNEVERNET is what is needed. Our press seems so afraid of not all the time consulting our authorites about their opinion, they will not make use of the case documents which the family can supply just as well as Barnevernet!

    And then again Burdir’s representative: She just STATES that they work for children’s best interest, no vestige of a thought of ever seriously going into the question of WHAT the best interest of children really is. So her “explanation” of any possible shortcomings is again about the workload. They want many more people, doing the same as always.

    It is really a very revealing article. The writing on the wall is that Norway does not intend to change anything, does not even understand that there is any call for change.

    “Norwegian media urged to play bigger role in promoting child welfare”
    http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=329699

    Reply

  28. Questions to Knut Nygaard:

    Dear Knut,

    In the last several months I have read many of your comments defending the actions of Barnevernet. I believe you want the best for children, otherwise you wouldn’t be working for this organization. I commend you for your stamina, too. It must be difficult to argue your case against so many skeptical, or even outraged, commenters who deeply disagree with you. It takes guts to wage this war alone for such a long time. However, I have some questions to you. Please, ponder them.

    1. Why do you think the world is so outraged by what they see about your child protection system? What is your explanation for this? If what Norway does is ethical and is for the best interest of the children, why does the rest of the world see this as deeply unethical that harms both children and parents? Why is the outrage directed specifically against your child protection system and not that of other countries? Could something fundamental be at stake here, that Norway should maybe take note of?

    2. Have you asked yourself why your comments sound so empty for your conversation partners? Here is my tentative explanation. They look at the horrid statistics and compare your thoughts to the masses of individual stories they hear about, and their hearts sink. You would need to convince their hearts as well as their minds. So far you have not been able to do either. I say this as a father of two boys: for a mother and a father there can be nothing more horrific than to lose their children, and it is an unimaginable trauma for children, too. Most of the world knows this, so we are shocked by your system. Everything you say sounds so cold and irrelevant to the pain we feel.

    3. Throughout history the mother-child relationship has been perceived to be the most sacred and most beautiful bond among human beings. Art has celebrated it for millennia, paintings and songs show us its beauty, films make us weep when it is breached by separation. You work for an organization that systematically destroys this most fundamental bond. And we are shocked: “What could possibly justify a system that so easily tears this bond apart?” You probably think we don’t have all the details, and I grant you that. But we still have enough statistics and enough stories to make us stop and weep. Is it possible that an ideology slowly numbed Norwegian decision-makers to the deepest human reality (love between mother and child), which most of the world is still very much appreciating?

    4. I lived half of my life under a Communist system. Under that regime many believed that elevating the state to an almost messianic role would bring happiness to the citizens of the country. Your defending Barnevernet reminds me of how ideologists defended the operation of the Communist state. It took decades for some people to realize how an ideologically driven tyranny destroyed the essential fabric of creation and the lives of hundreds of thousands. Why do you think Norway will escape this danger if it elevates the state to a level where it basically “owns” the children of the citizens (a deeply disturbing thought!)? To me this level of trust appears to be naive at best, irresponsible and collaborating with evil at worst.

    5. How many tragic stories would convince you that something went terribly wrong in your system? If I understand you, you also think the Bodnariu case was mishandled. We are aware of a great number of similar cases, some have already caused international diplomatic conflicts with Norway. How many cases do you need so you would stop defending Barnevernet and start working against the evil within?

    I wrote these questions to you from my heart, with respect, trusting that you also hear the cries of the children and the cries of the lonely, shamed fathers and mothers. Please, think about them. You can still do great things for the children, and for their God-given life-givers. Why don’t you become an agent for change (for the children’s sake) instead of defending something that kills love and destroys souls?

    Adam Szabados
    pastor, theologian, writer, blogger (Hungary)

    Reply

    • I was intending to ask Knut pretty much the same questions, Mr. Szabados. You did it so graciously and I hope Knut would reply in a similar manner. He claims to be a Christian… but it’s hard for me to understand how can a Christian work for, and defend a business that bring so much pain in the hearts of thousand of mothers and fathers, by stealing their most precious possession entrusted to them by God: their own children! Can a Christian become so insensitive to the fact that the institution he works for is the reason why, night after night, many children and many moms in Norway go to sleep in tears, crying out to God in desperation?

      Reply

    • Thank you, Adam. for a sincere comment. I shall do my best to answer.

      1. We in the CPS are a public service that in general handle people and cases that for some is seen as an attack on the most precious members of their family – the children. Most people around the world can identify themself with such an attack. The Bodnariu case was first presented for the world as an attack – or presecution of Christians. I know that many living in the USA look upon Norway as a socialist country a level under the old Soviet. I think you in Hungary have more a right impression of us – we are a secular state where Christianity no longer is in the tongue and heart of most people. True believers aren’t that many – some hundreds of thousand is my guess – and maybe a million or so of socalled Christians that still go to church for baptism when the child is around three months – confirmation at the age of 14/15 – wedding in Church and in the coffin when they die. I moved to Bergen so my children could attend a Christian private school. You find that school alternative up to University here. In a public school children coming from true believers may find that they are different from most of the others. Other children don’t speak from the Bible and think like a Christian, but they are not persecuted – they find themselves somewhat different. The Bodnariu parents might have thought that this was an attack on them from .. and thought of it as a possible persecution. That message was sent to the pentacostals around the world and most “bought” it – how could they know that the real reason was spanking and other “differencies” told by the daughters. I have also understood that the Romanians have demonstrations as a weapon to get rid of communist dictators in their history. If the CPS could be seen upon as such a threat more people would follow the invitation to demonstrate. I have also learned that in Eastern Europe family seems to be a more lasting project than in the Western world. I have not seen that foreign families have more family solutions than us natives – which are at a low level – most people close to the family won’t involve themselves – they are happy that the CPS is existing as an alternative – and I think that’s a difference – in the Eastern Europe you are more pledged to take responibility for the broader family than in Norway – for without the broader family these children or family are in a very bad situation. I have also learned that the Bodnariu organization in Chicago where some are pastors and Christians used fear as a weapon to get more people involved. I have not seen in any Norwegian paper that these children were intended for adoption – that word was spread. Other things were hidden – like the situation for the father with a not ended Criminal case and that the parents use one lawyer each. From my window the word “truth” was lacking both in the organization and in what was written in many of the comments and articles on this page where Mr. Prunean calls the page or himself something close to Truth. I think the rest of the world may be more used to public services not doing their job or that they had the possibility to bribe themselves out of a difficult situation – here in Norway we try to do what the Child Welfare Act tells us to do and actually does it. Why us? I don’t know what’s going on of possible protests in other countries, but our CPS is much the same in the Western world. We live in the age of the internet where everyone can present a story just as they like – they can make it all up just for propaganda reasons – some parts others not – think they tell the story not know what they omitt – most stories tell very little about why the CPS got them on their radar. When the Norwegian Chronics – the CPS protesters for decades – as Mrs. M saw the possibility to provide more fuel to the movement this mix of natives, Christians, activists of human rights reasons or other reasons found a common ground. Maybe we are easy to attack on the internet – we are a small country by inhabitants – we are generally naive and friendly – we think the best about people we don’t know and as you know we are the main destination for the travellers coming to the number one destination on the earth – Norway. If you look back you find that much has been done from the table of Mrs. Horne already. We in the CPS are in almost constant change. Some come from her desk – other parts come from the control of the service done by the County Governeur and some from the municipality offices – like the Council Man. There is a lot going on all over the country done from internal considerations. I hope we will see more municipalities find the possibility to cooperate with a population under 15000 and that the emergency handling must be more trained to be on the same action level all over the nation.

      2. I understand the emotions coming from reading a story told as you wish on the internet. In my daily work there are a lot of emotions we both meet and we as humans ourselves have problems to cope with. Most of the emotions are steared up in cases where the child is under ten. These emotions come from what they see in their daily life – as you share with us – and think that a family funcitonate and have a daily life like yourselves. We know that they don’t. It’s seldom you meet so close an ordinary family as the B.’s. As humans we have a little or great bit of ourselves with us in the way we meet those people we are by our daily work involved with, I – as a Christian – both pray and praise the Lord before a meeting or on my way to a home visit. I hope and wish to have a bit of Him with me into the situations and the solutions. I have a problem with the truth in the internet stories and it’s hard for me to follow everything told and I understand that I may stand out as hard. I’m not – most of the commenters here are activists and Mr. Prunean has for instance used my comments as headliners twice without thinking I should be asked if it’s ok. The last use was done with danger for loosing my job, but that doesn’t bother Mr. Prunean – he has his activism to feed with something and ethics aren’t important.

      3. First of all – in the year 2016 it’s about time to put the father next to the mother. I daily meet young father on their walk alone as father together with other fathers when they have leave from the work to be the main person in the babies life for some weeks. To move a child out of a family is the last resort – the emergencies is done out of violence and abuse considerations. If the grant you came with come from reading the Costea version from February and some information from the B. headquarter this grant is not trustworthy. You don’t know all the facts in this case – that is the grant is my guess. If the parents “love” is the best for the child we must find an alternative – if the parent is a mother or a father – or both.

      4. I have tried to tell you some truth about Norway, Norwegians and the CPS as a whole – that has been my intention – because many of you do as you do – when you don’t know how the CPS works you find something you have experienced and think it’s comparable. It’s not. Why should a nation own people? You must be a communist to think in that way. Why should a nation be better off if it owned the children? To take the care for a child costs a lot of money – money that could be used on other things – like roads and getting the snow away from the road – why use it on foster homes if it was not necessary. The nation is much better off if there was no need for a CPS.

      5. For me personally – none. The cases on the internet isn’t reliable. Because of the Costea version there was some reilability in that case and I changed my view after seeing the Council Man defending his “winning” team on Debatten on Nrk. I recognized that attitude ande understood that the children were in danger of not being reunited with their parents. I do hope this was a rightous alteration because I was surprised of the information about the father still under police investigation and that the mother had one lawyer on her own and so the father. I now more understand why they didn’t talk to the Norwegian media.

      Thank you for some readable and good questions.

      Reply

      • Knut,

        Let me try to summarize what I hear you say in your answers:

        1. The Bodnarius sent the world the false message that they had been persecuted for their faith. The truth is, however, that Norway has less stable families than Eastern Europe and therefore there is a bigger need of intervention in your country. Plus Norway is attacked because it is a small nation and therefore an easier target than other countries.

        2. You (Knut) sound hard in your comments because you have to be careful what is quoted from you on the internet.

        3. The information gained from sources close to the Bodnarius are not trustworthy. Contrary to what is told us, Barnevernet only takes children from father and mother as a last resort.

        4. Barnevernet is not like the Communist system at all. Why would they spend money on CPS if it wasn’t needed?

        5. You are still not sure it is right that the Bodnariu children can go home because to your knowledge Marius is under police investigation.

        Thank you for answering my questions. I have to tell you, though, that your answers only raise more questions and concerns.

        1. If it is true that families are less stable in Norway than in Eastern Europe (or Central Europe), then why is Barnevernet targeting stable families? (The statistics are staggering.) It makes no sense at all. Unless of course family itself as an institution is not valued anymore. But then that is an even bigger problem.

        2. Is Norway a free country where you can freely express your opinion? What are you afraid of?

        3. Do you have a better access to information than Costea, Reikeras, Salvesen, Susman, Skanland, or the statistics made public by Barnevernet itself? Why should I trust you more than other sources?

        4. Let me tell you: not even Communists (at least in Hungary) had such a low view of the biological family as Norway seems to have today. Family was still somehow sacred for the Communists. As far as the big money is concerned which is being poured into the CPS in Norway: don’t you think this itself can cause a lot of problems? Einar Salvesen thinks so. The money makes the people involved (lawyers, psychologists, social workers, foster parents, etc.) interested in producing results, which easily creates a system that makes problems to solve them. I don’t think you have a realistic view of human nature if you can’t see the danger here.

        5. Isn’t Marius under police investigation (how do you know this?) because Barnevernet had reported on him? Just think what this does NOT prove once you stop trusting the system. Try that mental experiment (of not trusting the system). For us in Central and Eastern Europe this is not hard…

        Every child in Hungary has heard the tale of Mishi the squirrel. Mishi is a restless little squirrel who refuses to bend to the discipline of school. He prefers to leave home in search of the tree that bears fruit forever. He goes through many interesting adventures and many trials and tribulations. One day Mishi arrives at the island where this tree is found. He meets some squirrels there who had been on the island for quite a while. They are fat. They just reach out their hands and eat of the fruit of the tree any time they want. They don’t even have to stand up and walk. Mishi the squirrel likes that. But one day the jackal shows up on the island and the fat squirrels can’t climb the trees anymore to escape. They are too fat. To Mishi’s horror the jackal takes one of the fat squirrels and carries it away. Mishi realizes that if he stays on the island he will get fat, too, and he won’t be able to escape from the jackal. The island is not a safe place, and the real danger of it is its calm and mesmerizing richness. Mishi makes the decision to take the long way home instead.

        When I hear Norwegians speak about their system with such uncritical trust, as you do, this tale comes to my mind. If we are right, the jackal is already on your island, and the Bodnarius may be your wake up call.

        Pastor Niemöller wrote this poem after WWII:

        “First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Socialist.

        Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

        Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Jew.

        Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

        Wouldn’t it be more Christian to speak out for the victims of Barnevernet (we KNOW that there are many, we even know the faces of many), instead of defending a system that clearly went amock? Knut, you could be a hero for hundreds of crying children and hundreds of desperate mothers and fathers, if you stopped defending that which causes their incredible pain, and became an engine for change instead!

        God bless you.

        Reply

        • 1. Targeting?? Our offices are in a buildning – we don’t see or hear what’s going on in families outside the building. We receive concerns from outside the building and act on those who are sent or voiced to the right address. If an investigation is started or an emergency it’s the child’s name(s) that follow our actions – we don’t know the quality or for that case the religion if any in that particular child’s situation.

          Yes, children in Norway like in most other parts of the world have parent(s). Of cause every child need parent(s) and family as an institution is high valued in our society and in the CPS – that’s why we invest most of our time doing investigations and set up help measures together with the legal parts involved. We cooperate with the measure plans – the goals and the evaluations. This is done with the intention of giving the child a better situation at home in it’s known family and surroundings.

          2. Norway is a free country and we can express our personal opinions as we like. As a CPS worker I have signed a duty silence like done all over the Western world in job situations where people work with other people. The one who lost his job ethics is Mr. Prunean and the lawyer Costea who says he read all the documents in a case where the parents lawyers in Norway had told them not to talk to the press – and then – the B organization with lawyer Costea share the information with anyone who is interested and know how to google – the B. children end up as poster children and will for ever be recognized with this CPS situation. It’s hard for me to understand how they shall find it’s normal place in Naustdal – back in the school surroundings where it all started. I – as a CPS in one municipal should usually not have so strong opinions as I had that I shared them with the municipal involved. Then it’s up to that municipal to handle the opinionmaking done and the possible consequences following. I have commented likewise in many Norwegian papers before sending it directly to Naustdal. That’s just opinions – the other could be seen as improperate interference.

          3. Every person you mention have opinions – just opinions. We usually trust people closest to us either by relation and for a Christian we usually give that identity label some kind of trust. We are all humans and have a little bit of our own in our opinionmaking. Some have seen the B case as a possibility for something more and personal than just voice an opinion. This has – as you have noticed – been a onevoiced movement where my and here on this blog Veronica and Topsy have met a lot of opposition. The first to block me out was Reikerås. The next was Steven Bennett – a Christian brother and a lover of the state of Israel – just as me, but full of wrong impressions and nameusing of Norway, Norwegians and the CPS as a whole. So much for the free speech and human rights in these activists own pages.

          4. What every person have of motivation for the work done with children, parents and the families is hard for me to decide, but I can assure you that families in every form they exist in today is high valued. Now with the muslims we may end up as the Mormons – with the allowance to multiple wives.

          5. I have said several times that I don’t understand this B. case – the timeframe – why the children aren’t reunited with their parents long ago and so on. Now I understand that the children shall stay where they are and finish this school year before moving for good back to their parents. I don’t know the reason for the unfinished police investigation – and I read it this way – an investigation coming from the police and Criminal law – not from the CPS asking for something.

          I do my part – and as I have said before – I could have retired, but I like my work and my experience seems needed. You can invest your time in what you want for me – the vicitims on the internet could be ??

          May the Almighty God enlighten us both. Blessings to you, too.

        • Adam Szabados,

          It is nice to know that someone with your common sense, which I believe comes from God, has been watching this discussion. Thank you for this fine presentation of truth. It has blessed my heart.

          God’s blessings..

      • Hello Knut and Adam,

        may I also join your discussions? I really appreciate there is a real discussion starting!

        1a. let me have a remark: it was not only Peter Costea and Mr. Prunean writing about emergency care order was partly due to religious topics. There are some independent bloggers who state they have read the documents of the case and mention it was partly on religious upbringing and partly due to violence. For example the grandfather of the children wrote an open letter mentioning this:
        http://bodnariufamily.org/articles/ruths-father-letter-for-local-government-and-norwegian-media-tatal-lui-ruth-mesaj-pentru-administratia-locala-si-presa-norvegiana-bilingual.
        Until the documents of the case get public the closest source to truth I can only consider the grandfather… If it was only Peter Costea and Mr. Prunean, I would be keen to agree that they might have rushed to false conclusions (which they sometimes seem to do)

        1b. Child Welfare Services are alike in any Western country. Understood, however I don’t know about any Western Childfare Services which got a concern letter by a few hundred professionals, and that for over almost a year even the methodology to how to investigate is not finalized yet. So, I would argue, Child Welfare Services are not completely alike any other similar services in the world, but they have a concern letter open on how they work and the leadership/ministry seems not so willing to act upon the concern letter. Also, Norway seems to have a record number of diplomatic issues on the topic compared to its population, and also leading statistics on number of emergency care orders per year per capita. Something could have gone wrong, and the sources here are credible Norwegian professionals, diplomats and heads of states (like Milos Zeman), and on the statistics Bufdir.

        So far I accept that Barnevernet is meant to be like any western child welfare services with the remark there are signs for a likely failure on system-level. Hopefully not an intended one.

        Don’t waste your words on the outbursts by Mr. Prunean and Mr. Costea. They are far not the most credible sources for criticism of the current Child Welfare system in Norway and not worth of your time. (Peter Costea can be an interesting source, but not really on his conclusions directly but on what he mentions he have read. At least that seems to match the more credible sources.)

        2. You mention: “These emotions come from what they see in their daily life – as you share with us – and think that a family funcitonate and have a daily life like yourselves. We know that they don’t. It’s seldom you meet so close an ordinary family as the B.’s.”
        Here I would like to ask: from where do you (in plural) know that the families is disfunctional? Once starting a case, with a concern letter from a school or doctor, or even due to an anonymous concern letter — how do you decide if the family functions well or there are serious disfunctions? How is all this supervised — please also consider the concern letter’s points on experts being

        On your newest reply about there are just opinions — I have to disagree. There are also testimonies from witnesses, including the aunt of the children and so on. Witness testimonies are not just opinions.

        3. You mention “To move a child out of a family is the last resort – the emergencies is done out of violence and abuse considerations.”. I agree this should be the way. However, due to the more credible sources I have mentioned above ( concern letter + reoccuring troubles in diplomacy + Bufdir’s own statistics ) I have serious doubts if it was actually the truth. This serious douby is the major concern for me in the debate.
        It could help the most to convince me that things are getting back to normal if there were real answers for the concern letter, or at least if one could see an honest will and effort in this direction.

        4. why are people thinking that Norway thinks about owning children? Due to the statistics on emergency care orders per year and due to the many cases which called international attention. Not only B. family from Romania, but also M. family from Czech Republic, R. family and another family from Poland, B. family from India, a couple of Lithuanian, Russian familes and as far as I remember an American mother as well.
        Could be repeated cases were things went wrong, combined with failures at all levels (which is not that surprising if you have read the concern letter)
        About spending: I see a constantly increasing number of cases, maybe except for the very last year, constantly increasing number of emergency care orders, the work union for child welfare workers being overloaded. And yet the way to fix it is to spend even more and more… without really having a look at the issues mentioned in the concern letter for example.

        5. I understand your response on the single case level. I guess Adam was also interested what is necessary for you to think there is something going wrong on system level?

        Reply

        • Clarification for Jasper: all the information here on DIT has been taken from the public domain. I was astute and picked up details as they emerged from the Antena 3 TV programs directly from Senators Corlatean and Ardelean, from Costea’s excerpts from BV documents, from Cristian Ionescu (Bodnariu spokesman). Any other details about Barnevern in general have been confirmed by sources in Norway and public Norwegian statistics.

        • All I have referred to in my previous comment is coming from public domain as well.
          The only things which are not public are the BV documents referred by Knut — they have more strength than opinions or the conclusions by Mr Costea and Mr Prunean — however they are at the equal weight like witness testimonies.

          Only a binding judgement or settlement at the end of a fair judical procedure among all necessary level of courts, deep diving into controversies among testimonies and expert opinions and official documents can be stronger than this level.
          In family B. ‘s case there is a settlement which is focusing on the future but does not really answer questions about the pasts. We have to all accept that and in this case, cease writing allegations on either parties.
          I think the settlement between family B. and between Barnevernet is going to be a strong evidence in the criminal case (if any) in favour of the parents.

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