Here is “Dear Lord and Father of Mankind” sang by a couple of thousand worshipers in Westminster Abbey. Modern Anglicans are really good at singing hymns, perhaps the best among all Christian branches and denominations.
Nov
22
2012
Delight in Truth
"Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart." Ps 51:6
Delight in Truth 
perfect example… the downgrade of humanity … you can even see it in the two clips…the one I posted bellow ,and this clip … the downgrade of music and the downgrade of humans ….hand in hand
There is a serious downgrade in the Anglican Church, Gabi… Its called depravity, down to the core. If you search Anglican Church controversies, you will see the problems with the compromise on sin and homosexuality. But long live the hymns. You would think this is the holiest denomination based on the music.
agree… you can have the form and not have the content…but if you don’t have content at least have the form…. at least you look civilized
I would rather spend a evening with most people from that anglican church than with any of those “christian” clowns from the previous clip… 🙂
Gabi,
You would, but I’m wondering what Jesus would–in fact, I have a sneaky suspicion to He would enjoy both of their companies and will tell them both about the Kingdom and His love and judgement to come…Wouldn’t you agree? 🙂
It seems an ungodly church can maintain a ‘form of godliness’, but of course a godly church cannot maintain a form of ungodliness. We should find a church that has a desire for both.
Obviously, we would have disagreements about points of theology with the church in this link, but there is a lot in their church to respect.
Manuela,
I’m just curious…why do you consider this a form of godliness? What does godliness look like? I think somehow we wrongly think that the orthodox style is godly… I beg to differ 🙂
Val,
Why do I consider a group of people from a church denomination coming together at a Bible camp and singing praises to God a ‘form of godliness’? I think you misunderstand the context from which the quote is taken (2 Timothy 3). The context is not talking about real godliness just an image, perhaps better stated a shell of godliness, coming from an unrepentant heart. Paul tells us that we should avoid such people. So, it is not those who come to church on Sundays and practice some ‘form of godliness’ that I should associate with.
My point is simple. There will be ungodly people holding a ‘form of godliness’. There will never be godly people living an outward life that is ungodly, or having worship that is, for example, blasphemous.
My reference to the Mennonites is, as I indicated, not that we agree with them on all doctrine. They present an image of striving for godliness (i.e. simplicity, modesty, and separation from the world among other things). The ‘form of godliness’ they present in their doctrine and worship is not a façade they put on for Sunday mornings, this is how they live. There is much in that we can respect.
I’d say your tone ain’t too godly 🙂 …maybe that’s why you missed the point in my question….but really, even the form of godliness is godly, it might be just a form, but it has to be godly in order to be considered godliness. My question was why you think the orthodox type of worship (the type portrayed in this clip) is considered godly in your view? Does the Bible mention that this particular style of singing is godly (be it even just on the outside)? Try again…if you will
In 2 Tim, Paul really is referring to a godly form which was given my God to the Jews in which way to worship Him…so, He was saying that a lot of people will have just that proper form without the content…but in our case, you somehow claimed that this particular style of music was given to the Church by God (since you said too bad that they dont also live godly since they do sing godly, or maybe I misunderstood)…Got it, now? 🙂
Val, ‘your tone ain’t too godly’? I mean seriously?! Are you able to engage in an actual discussion that doesn’t revolve around what you want to say, and instead revolves around the topic being discussed?
Manuela explained herself politely and at great length. Oh, and I agree with her on 2 Timothy 3, when Paul writes to the Christian church about men in the last days, I don’t believe he is simply referring Israelites following worship as outlined in the Law as you seem to suggest.
” Liberals have all or most of these qualities: -prefer to insult others rather than use logic and reasoning -have an arrogant behavior -use anti-depressants or illegal drugs -favor Marxists, Socialists or Communists -against all or part of the 10 Commandments-favor killing babies (abortion) -dislike Christians-liars -like Lucifer they hate obedience or responsibility
Then I made a list of qualities of people I have met that are conservative. They have most of these characteristics: -try to follow the 10 commandments-have a spiritual life either as a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Christian, etc. -have a genuine love for their Creator and people around them -selfless
http://english.pravda.ru/history/29-11-2010/115965-liberalism-0/
Yes … Pravda … Out of all newspapers ….
These are political liberals 🙂
same basic thinking…..
Val, godliness in worship music has many facets; lyrics are one major factor; if you look closely at the lyrics of hymns, they are very biblical, and deeply theological. There is a certain reverence about them. Even when they were written, they were very different from the worldly music that was popular at that time. Most importantly hymnal worship is very God and Christ centered.
We just made the point that the Anglican Church has many problems right now which shows its ungodliness, unfortunately, but the hymns they sing are like a “form” of godliness because of what’s going on inside the church.
Chris, thank you for explaining the context of our discussion.
Val,
Your question is not relevant to the context of the discussion. I believe, still, that you misunderstand 2 Timothy 3, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. I believe I have explained my point twice now.
If you did not understand, feel free to reread and try again to
understand.
Chris,
I know what you all are trying to say, but my question still is: what biblical support is there to prove that this style of music is godly? where is godly music defined? I’m trying to make the point (not trying to be feisty) that somehow, whether we realize it or not, we consider this style godly but we have no biblical basis for it….And, I’m not being mean about it, I’m just pointing out a misnomer… See, somehow, we think that if something is old(er) is automatically godly and if it’s new(er) it is not…And, I totally disagree with that… nowhere in the Bible is that logic found…No offense to anyone
Val, the Bible gives us principles. So we try to follow those principles. Light and dark are antonyms used in the Bible frequently to refer to holiness vs worldliness. So, based on that alone, you cannot take rock ‘n roll from the world and put Psalm 23 to it and use it in that style on Sunday la ora de rugaciune.
Now… new vs old music is not one of the principles mentioned in the Bible… 🙂
Chris,
What I’m trying to say, is I, personally, don’t find that style godly, but rather religious. And I don’t think God does either–I think to Him it’s just another style…at least that is what I think. He is equally (un)interested in styles (since He has not prescribed one that I know of) and this is what most folks from (more) traditional churches seem to miss.
Chris,
“the Bible gives us principles. So we try to follow those principles.”
that is my point, too–no particular style.. but, really, what tunes you in, might tune me out and vice versa. Rock’ n roll, not my style, but to assume it’s not God’s either it’s playing God a little too much, maybe..See, if I don’t embrace a style of music, I tend to think that it’s ungodly and not that maybe I just don’t get it…
Matt, I disagree with you… politely… I did have a valid question:” why is this style (of music) considered godly?” The article was about music style (so, I wasn’t off topic, as you imply), not clothes and lifestyle.I wasn’t even arguing, I was asking, but the question got interpreted: “why are their style of clothing, life and song lyrics godly?” Maybe I didn’t ask clearly enough…no reason to get upset just b/c we are disagreeing…So, I asked her respectfully (I think) to try again. So, I am waiting patiently to hear…. from her, possibly.
There is no way rock ‘n roll could be God’s style. When we get to heaven we will see that I am right on this 🙂 Real rock ‘n roll has its origin in the sexual revolution, and drug use starting in 1960 (even a little earlier). To transpose the Rolling Stones into church with christian lyrics would be an abomination.
I think it’s great to use instruments like drums and guitars and keyboards to praise God. But not the STYLE, mannerisms, etc from the world.
I actually embrace a wide variety… but it must be Christ-centered.
Val, is this music godly or is this music ungodly? Or it is Godly and we just don’t get it?
http://www.youtube.com/
Chris… you don’t have to post this … you might want to send it to Val
Gabi,
I don’t found it godly (maybe a Satanist would), I find it evil; but, I don’t find the Anglican style godly, either–I find it religious..See, somehow, if something is conservative in nature, conservatives automatically label that “godly”… and somehow (ultra) conservatives think that as long as they hold a conservative view they’re also holding God’s view–no need biblical support, either…NOT TRUE!!!.
I have been trying to make the point that conservatism and godliness doesn’t have any more or any less in common than liberalism and godliness do. I will make the bold statement that God is approx. equally conservative and liberal–anyone wanna argue me on that????
I have also been trying to point out that most often WE tend to pass judgement on something not using spiritual discernment, but rather our own spiritual upbringing and background, likes/dislikes, etc and often miss the truth.
Guys, conservatism tries desperately to hoard/preserve something–good or bad; liberalism tries to let go of the old and embrace the new–good or bad…Thank God for both (sometimes) and watch out from both (sometimes)….
“the Goodman of the house brings out old and new things [the assumption here is made that they are both good since he is a Goodman]”. But the way we read that most often is: “the Goodman of the house only has good, old fashion things in the house.” 🙂
Val , that where the problem comes…. you say it is evil, but the guy that sings it would say is Godly… so how can we know which one is right? Or are we so postmodern now that we don’t know what the truth is?
The Bible itself does not mention all the sins…but it has this verse bellow
“But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil”
And than it has another word that includes many sins that are not spelled out in the bible ” worldliness” , and some people ( the mature) could distinguish them….
Now , why do you think that the church( and not only the church) called rock music evil when it came out ? Were they wrong or are we desinsitized to it now to drink it like water?
Now on your use of the word “religious”
Is it better to have faith instead of religion ? For the sake of eternity , yes
Is it better to have no religion that some religion(i exclude here the violent types)? Of course
Is it better for the society to raise the new generation in a religion of the anglican type than in a society of no religion ( communism) ? Of course … USA was found it on the Judeo Christian values … that was a religion…
Conservatism is good because is always takes you back to the the original values ( and of course that you can come back to me with “slavery” or the oppression of the minorities… that is not going back to the original values … those were sins from the beginning )
God himself always says ” remember”… “go back ”
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
we are called to imitate not to invent
Gabi,
I know what you and I would like, but my point is that is not necessarily what God wants—we both (and all conservatives) prayed voted for Romney, but God didn’t care enough about it to make that happen. I live in a very conservative, clean, quiet, etc city, but Jesus most likely would live in a ghetto amongst the worst of the worst b/c he wants them saved and loves them (He would not convince anyone to vote for Romney or Bush or Reagan). We yell and scream about homosexuals, would like to see them denied every right–Jesus would not do that–He would try to save as many as He could. God is just different than we are, but somehow conservatives think that God is like them. NOT SO!!!
Conservatives stink for many reasons: they are resistant to change, they tend to be stingy, judgmental, they tend to hoard. And, yes, being racial, , beating the out of your wife and kids were (still are in many places) used to be conservative values.
I truly believe God wants us to focus on love mercy and justice, not conservatives vs liberals. Jesus seemed to be more in the company of gross sinners than in the one of religious goodies. Doesn’t make sense to me and it didn’t make sense to the religious conservatives of His day–most likely the reason they hated Him so much was b/c He was too pro gross sinners–he was accused of being a liberal, too. So, you and I might want a nice religious community to grow up in, but God might not.
And even though I consider that music evil, God might not.. Maybe, a Satanist might get convicted, I don’t know…All I know, it’s not for me, but I don’t represent the world, the truth, or the know-it-all. I try to be the same about all who labor for the Gospel–I might not follow/appreciate them in the least…but if they cast demons out in Jesus’ name and people get saved and healed, alleluia from me and we’ll see what happens at the judgement and I don’t think you have too long to wait. 🙂
val …there is do much in what you wrote that I don’t even know where to start…first starter you confuse conservatism with some conservatives… like some confuse christianity with the catholic inquisition …..
The rest is classic postmodern philosophy with a little straw man you build there so you can make your point….
you can do better than that 🙂
Val, I think you mixed in there a lot of political conservative issues that should never ever apply to a Christian. Racism, domestic violence… those are pretty ugly.
Also, liberals are much more stingy with their own money than conservatives… (talking political here). Liberals are generous with other people’s money… 🙂 But conservatives like Romney (he is actually a moderate), he gives like 30% of his income to charity. BTW I did not pray for Romney to win 🙂 I prayed for God to awaken America to understand the Gospel.
On Jesus’s “liberalism” I agree that he was way out there against an idolatrous establishment… the religious leaders were upset with Him foremost because He claimed divinity, He claimed He was God. Then they were making up things that He is glutton, a drunkard, he associated with the depraved, etc… He loved the sinner, but hated the “life of sin” (eternal security clip 🙂 ), in other words he hated the sinful life style…
Jesus was there to demonstrate the Kingdom and the Gospel. He was not there to assimilate liberalism into His practice or worship. Big difference.
Chris,
In all my commentaries, I was strictly talking about Christians (conservatives vs liberals), not political views.
“Jesus was there to demonstrate the Kingdom and the Gospel. He was not there to assimilate liberalism into His practice or worship. Big difference.”
Agree with your statement–wish conservative Christians would do that too, instead of yelling from a distance how sinful they are….but not get to close to them since they are so “holy”. 🙂
Your statement poses a question: if Jesus was there because of the things you mentioned, why didn’t the conservatives of His day see that? Is it possible that history repeats itself over and over and the ministers to do the same today are accused of the same things Jesus was? Just a thought. 🙂
Val, the conservatives of Jesus’s day were not believers. They were hardened Jews. So the question doesn’t really apply…
I feel that both conservatives and liberals (believers) have problems with sin.
But in a church where a liberal way of life is allowed (unkempt or provocative dress, piercing, tattoos, rock-concert style music, ultra-short services, recreational breaks in the middle of service, etc), I believe it is easier to slide down the slippery slope towards the world. No point in pushing a car downhill…
One does not have to be a legalistic enforcer (trust me I have seen those) to be conservative.
In my experience in the Ro community and I have seen many churches, the balanced conservative (not conservative legalistic enforcer!) families are more likely to have their children grow to adulthood in the Lord, than the liberal ones who accept alcohol, liberal dress and jewelry, and so forth… I think you might agree on this one.
“I feel that both conservatives and liberals (believers) have problems with sin.”
With that remark, you have settled the dispute 🙂 –that has been my point all along! Of course, we will continue to disagree that imposing rules, helps one grow…A personal example: no one has ever forced me to do anything, but being touched by God’s Spirit along with living in the company of godly people “enforced”change in me.. I am a true believer in enforcing by example only. The rest is legalism 🙂
PS–We become the company we keep
“touched by God’s Spirit along with living in the company of godly people” So… you didn’t really do what you wanted to do after all 🙂
Now you’re coming to the middle!
” I am a true believer in enforcing by example only. The rest is legalism”
That is so …liberal…:)
1 Corinthians 5: 13
God will judge those outside. “ do not expel the wicked person from among you.. teach them by example only …
Matthew 18
and 19 Therefore go and make disciples……20. enforce by example everything I have commanded you.
🙂
in this clip ,towards the end ( after few very strange concepts for the regular (post)modern christian) Washer gives his opinion on what the neoliberalism is….
Gabi,
Legalism never changed anybody on the inside…
I cant help but think how way back in the beginning, the circumcised (conservative) Christians felt more spiritual and more godly 😉 b/c they enforced some extra standards and forms…Boy, oh, boy…were they off in their thinking or what?!
You can pass judgement on bad behavior and you can teach people truth, but you cannot force it down….people either embrace it or they don’t… 🙂
Deceived/saved people are in both camps, for different/opposite reasons (definitely not b/c of their forms), but they are still deceived.
oh … nice … i am talking about the moral law and you are changing it to circumcision
politiceasca, eh ?…. 🙂
And i see that you love to use the word legalism a lot
Ill give you the biblical definition of it
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
So if you pursue the law by the engine of faith, it is not legalism ,
but if you pursue the law by works, than is legalism…
Chris,
None of us do what we want anymore, but it should not be b/c some man or institution demands, but b/c of Christ…
Gabi,
You went off track, I think… We are not to pursue the Law (not even by faith), but righteousness.
Law and Faith are both means to an end, and that end is not keeping of the Law, but the Righteousness of God.
Could be… but i dont think so… here someone else explaining beter than i ever can do it
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/the-anatomy-of-legalism-and-the-discipline-of-prayer
hmm …i was wondering if Manuela Faith and Hope has any of those clothes in her closet? And if she does, where does she buy them from?:)
Gabi,
You have to make them yourself.
Seriously, you’d let your wife leave the house wearing something different? 🙂
This is what the Romanian pentecostals looked like before the 90s
Exactly, and br. Gabi should know that 🙂
Chris,
Honestly, I dont like it at all…but I never liked choirs or orchestra since I dont understand music or grew up with this type…It’s interesting though that so many others do… So, styles can differ and preferences can differ and I think God might like them all (if they are in truth and Spirit) and may dislike them all (if they are not). 🙂
Oh…one more thing… christianity used to civilize people…in the last 20 or thirty years in turns them back to the inferior cultures of the primitive humans… look what shocks you today and in 10 years you will see it in your local church being promoted as Godly…. the world was shocked at Elvis when he first came out… now I would only hope that most churches would dial back their style of music to the Elvis style…. the Beatles look like a Mennonites compare with most christian band today..
Manuela,
I owe you an appology and a clarification.
1. My question was referring to the Anglican song style, not your clip–I didnt realize your comment referred to the your own clip—Sorry, my bad…. 🙂
2. 2 Tim is referring to forms of godliness in the Church for sure, not in the synogue; however, given the time it was written, Paul most likely at least included in his remark the Jewish way of godliness as being acceptable
.
Val,
No problem at all, I thought there might have been some confusion.
Peace!
[audio src="http://cdn.desiringgod.org/mp3/blog/T4G2-All_I_Have_Is_Christ.mp3" /]