A reader in Norway writes in: “Hello Pastor John, thank you for all that you have done for the kingdom and for this podcast. I have a question regarding child rearing. You have formerly said that you would go to jail over the issue of spanking. I agree with you that spanking is biblical. But in my home country, Norway, as well as in many other countries, spanking is illegal. The consequences would then not only be that one may have to go to jail, but that the government would take your children. This has now happened in the famous Bodnariu case where a couple in Norway lost their children after spanking them.
[UPDATE: The children have been returned].
In cases such as these, one may never get one’s children back again, because the government may not see you as a suitable parent because you spanked your children. What would you do as a Christian parent in Norway? Wouldn’t it be better to NOT spank your children and be sure that your children will never be taken away from you? This is a big issue with huge consequences for us in Norway.”
For sure, this is an important topic and has great consequence — and Norway is not the only country. You can go online and see a graph of the countries in Europe and around the world where it is illegal to spank, and that is only increasing.
I read about the Bodnariu case some time ago. The government took away five children from this family with, in my judgment, it seemed, no evidence of child abuse. I came away from that story feeling the way Jesus did in Mark 3:5 where it says, “He looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of hard” — anger and grief, anger and grief, the mingling of those two emotions. You can’t help but feel them in this situation. All five children were seized by the Norwegian government and, as far as I can tell, there was no evidence of child abuse. It is an ideological difference about the best way to raise your kids.
And yes, I have said that I would go to jail over this. In other words, if they wanted to put me in prison because I believe that the best way to love my children was to spank them sometimes when they were disobedient, I wouldn’t sacrifice that conviction or that behavior to stay out of jail. But, of course, that kind of protest and threat is of no use when the person about to be put in prison is not yourself, but your children. And yes, I know they are not being put in jail. But the point is it is similar. They are being legally kidnapped from the family and put in places they don’t want to be. And so the willingness of the parents to go to jail is not the issue anymore. So when I said that, I probably wasn’t thinking as realistically as is proving to be the case.
So, the question for our friend in Norway — and other countries, I am sure — is: Should we risk losing our children to the high-handed tactics of the state, or should we relent in spanking our children? And, of course, there are many related questions that Christians in Norway and other countries are facing like: What does a pastor preach? I don’t know what the legal ramifications are if he preaches the true biblical teaching. Does he tell the people what the Bible says and encourage them to obey, or does he just ignore parts of the Bible, or does he show them how to compromise? How do parents teach their children the Scriptures? Do they skip those parts of the Bible in telling their children how to raise their children? And if they teach their children, what will they say if the children say: Why don’t you spank us since the Bible says you should?
Now, of course, the issues are far deeper than simply the nature of parental discipline. There is a view of human nature at work here that will have repercussions everywhere. There is a view of how to restrain bad behavior and get good behavior from children that the state evidently thinks is less psychologically damaging than simple, measured, loving spanking.
The issue here is not merely how kids behave in later life. Are they well-adjusted or maladjusted? That is not the main issue. But rather, the issue is how they view the whole world — especially themselves and God. That is the great issue, which, of course, the Norwegian government does not take into account, but which is the most important issue in the world. According to Hebrews 12, God himself uses corporal punishment. And treating kids differently will not serve well to help them know God and love God and believe in the God of Hebrews 12 and his holiness and his mercy. Of course, governments don’t take into account these great issues. They are only thinking at a very narrow, natural, historical, societal level — not a cosmic level, not an eternal level that includes heaven and hell and salvation and obedience to God and eternal destinies and the exaltation of the glory of God. None of that matters to governments, but it should matter infinitely to Christian parents.
So, if I lived in Norway, what would I do? I would pray earnestly for wisdom. I would not assume that this is a simple either-or situation. God is a God of wonders. God is a God of miracles. He has ways out of dilemmas that seem hopeless. We can’t think of any alternatives, but he can. He splits the Red Sea. That was an alternative nobody thought of. He stopped the sun in the sky. That was an alternative nobody thought of. He raises the dead. He walks on water. “All things are possible with God” (Mark 10:27). So I would pray earnestly that God would show me a way to be obedient to God and keep, keep, keep my children.
And if I really had to choose between spanking my children and losing them to the state and I knew it was a necessary choice, of course, I would choose keeping my children over spanking them. That is the answer he was looking for, probably.
This is not choosing disobedience over obedience, because it would be disobedient to surrender your children to the state. One thing is crystal clear in the Bible: God holds parents accountable for the raising of their children, not the state — which leads to one other consideration: leaving a country where you can’t exercise your faith legally. America was founded by people who did that. They left their homelands so that they could exercise their faith in the way that they thought they should, and they were coming to an absolute wilderness. Half of them died in the process, which shows how important it was. And I have had people come to my church here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA from Europe because they wanted to homeschool their children and weren’t allowed to in the country they came from. I know it is happening today.
So, I will pray for my brothers and sisters in lands like Norway where increasingly unjust and evil laws put the Christian between two terrible choices. And we are all moving toward that situation, and we will need great courage and great wisdom.
Taken from Desiring God (here)
Photo: Micah Chiang
Delight in Truth 
I agree with Pastor Piper on this one.
Knut, we in The United States cannot understand why you, Norwegians are unable to read studies like the one below and traumatize children by taking them for any reasons from parents.
“Foster Care vs. Keeping Families Together: The Definitive Studies”
Click to access evidence.pdf
We don’t understand why you, Norwegians, do not ask the children if they want to be taken from their parents and given to strangers but your state decides what’s best for them.
Knut, why you don’t tell us honestly that in Norway the children are the property of the state? I chatted with a Norwegian blogger and he stated that children are people are nobody’s property. Then, if they are people why don’t you ask their opinion before removing them from their biological parents? In Norway not parents but the state decides the children’s destiny. Nevertheless, they claim that their country is the best place for families 🙂
Reblogged this on agnus dei – english + romanian blog and commented:
A lengthy answer from John Piper on the subject of spanking and the Bodnariu case. This is well worth the read!!!
Reblogged this on Dumnezeu e în control.
There are 35 countries in the world that prohibits violence done against children by law – violence With Reference to spanking. Venuzuela and Costa Rica are the only ones in the American world.
94% of the children in the USA are subjected to corporal punishment. Most used towards children in the age 2 to 4 – at the age 2 83% of the parents used corporal punishment – the half of these used it more than 3 times a week – 27% used objects of some kind – at the age of 14 23% were still subjected to corporal punishment.
Gundersen – sounds Norwegian – are among those who work for the alternative to corporal violence in your surroundings.
http://www.gundersenhealth.org/ncptc/about-us/programs
We in Norway cannot understand why you religious Americans must use violence to foster your children when research tell you that it just has a short time effect and don’t give the child general teaching of how to behave.
Research tell that there is a coherence between corporal punishment and aggressive and problematic behaviour outside the home – there is a coherence to later use of violence and criminal conduct – there is a coherence to drug abuse – there is a coherence to cognitive development: loss of intelligence ( 5 IQ Points) and lower results at School.
Is it a Christian duty to use corporal punishment? Are you a sinner if you don’t? I think you use the Bible as an allowance to hurt small scared children and when the parents do the violence they learn that they can’t trust the love part With it’s sudden shifts to violence and feel lost and lonely. You need to learn who to behave with an alternative to violence.
No one here endorses violence, Knut. For some reason you do not want to understand that spanking is not violence. You use the term violence as in “beating” someone. That is not the case.
You have serious issues with biblical passages based on your comments. You would go and just eliminate entire passages from the Bible (like Hebrews 12).
So, I ask you to stop refering to non-abusive corporal punishment as domestic violence. It is intelectually dishonest.
The true “violence against children” is when Barnevernet agents kidnap the children from their parents’ arms against their will.
true… and separates 5 siblings across Norway in different homes
If the B’daughters had not told the teacher that they found themselves different and didn’t understand why it were only them that were spanked in the municipality there would have been no knowledge of what was going on. When this information was given the school acted according to Law and the police/CPS likewise.
This should be easy – if you live in a country and don’t want trouble – follow the rules and law. If you of religious belief can’t follow – move to a place on earth where you find Your paradise – and for spankers Canada and USA must be the destination number one.
If someone “kidnap” a child it should be reported to the police so they could find the child and arrest the kidnappers or – if this was not a kidnapping, but a necessary move to give the children safety then…..
You should translate this, Mr. Prunean – an article written by Alf Gjøsund that tell the story of the violent behaviour he experienced as a child – “My fathers hand” – he is 46 years old now and the article begin With the son visiting his father in his final days where the son had to comfort the father – take his hand – the abusive hand.
http://www.vl.no/meninger/kommentar/fars-hand-1.692011
You nailed it! So true! Discipline doesn’t feel good when it happens. But afterwards it brings reward. A child who learns that misbehaviour has consequences, will spare him/ herself from problems later on in life.
There is a huge difference between spanking and violence. But in Norway it seems that almost every little “touch” goes under violence. Only what is done under Barnevernets authority is not looked upon as violence. They can do whatever they like, it seems. They can pull and tear a child away from its mummy and daddy and call it “good”. But truth is that a child that is taken away from loving parents is given life long suffering thanks to Barnevernet.
Knut,
“If someone “kidnap” a child it should be reported to the police so they could find the child and arrest the kidnappers or – if this was not a kidnapping, but a necessary move to give the children safety then….. ”
maybe it was not a kidnap just a misuse of authority — could be still reported to police for several years.
You know, if it was a necessary move or not could be ruled at last resort in Strasbourg.
Exactly DIT;
You seem to be of the opinion that people evolve Knut, with your respect for ‘research’, I am of the opposite opinion. we’re not evolving, we’e going backwards collectively. Research can be paid to get the result we need, both ways.
We must look at the broad picture here, to get the full overview of the agenda:
The State powers of all the nations under the leadership of Madam Blavasky, and the freemasonic Albert Pike et al’s luciferian gospel of the United Nations (her offices of Lucifer Publishing later Lucis Thrust adress was 666 United Nations Plaza, for the promotion of the Easten mystery religion of the Serpent/Kundalini), have for a long time promoted the unleashing of the luciferian spirit of the youth (the rebellious spirit). It is not just Norway, it is all over the place. Norway is as always only the best kid in class to implement the luciferian UN doctrines and regulations.
I remember when this movements started with feminism, called ‘fri barneoppdragelse’ (free child upbringing), children should decide everything themselves, one of the reasons they didn’t need parents. We saw disastarous consequenses when the mothers sitting in the cafes driniking coffe and smoked and when their rabiate children did something wrong, they was just ‘exploring their freedoms’, should not be corrected. On this basis the voting age was lowered, the youth was becoming decision-makers more and more, and the luciferian spirit was let loose (the Beast unleashed); “We’re Legions, We’re many” (Mark 5:9). UN ‘human rights’ to promote all kind of perversities and ‘freedoms’.
This ‘freedom minded’ (freedom for all kinds of perversities and evils) later became adults, and occupied the posts in our institutions and government.
If the youth is to be released and sacrificed into the hands of Baal/Molech and Lucifer, they need to be able to decide their own upbringing. The Biblical ‘honor thy father and mother so you might live happily in your nations” will become like this instead:
“As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” – Isaiah 3:12
As I described in this article:
CPS and the State upbringing of traumatized luciferians
http://www.riksavisen.no/barnevern-og-stat-oppdrar-traumatiserte-luciferianere/
It was of outmost importance for the satanists and the luciferians that Christians could not bring their children up in the Christian tradition og loyalty to God more than to the State preferred spirit of Lucifer (the anti-Christ spirit, Satan dressed as an Angerl of Light and mimic Jesus Christ goodness, they actully believe they do good – Madam Blavatsky called her luciferian spirit also ‘Christ’, without Jesus in front).
Sublimation
In the book “Childhood and Society” from 1950 says Erik Homburger Erikson, that the lower propensities and impulses from human nature needs to be sublimated (transformed) to some higher qualities, whether man shall reach his purpose in their life and work to the benefit of society.
http://www.gyldendal.no/Gyldendal-Akademisk/Psykologi/Utviklingspsykologi/Barndommen-og-samfunnet
One must therefore transform the lower energies in man to a more worthy and ideal configuration. Man is born inside matter, they must be reborn out of it, in the spirit and to the spirit. It was a Christian noble cause to bring evolution from the animalistic nature of man to a godly nature of the Spirit of God. The luciferians wanted it otherwise, opposite.
This lower energies is not allowed to be sublimated into godlike men and women today. The State have given precedence to the luciferian gospel, and make unlawful the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Biblical commandments how to assure a good society. The secular state of the New World Order have stepped in on the side of the satanists and the luciferians. It is not fair play, but the Bible warns and tells us about it, so it should not come as any surprise for reborn spirit filled Christians.
When the civilized societies of the West now crumble, the whole World on the brink of total destruction, this people of a reprobate mind will not be able to see their shortcomings. The Bible says that if God do not intervene, there wouldn’t be human flesh alive in the World. That is how far down in the ashes they bring humanity, before their Bird Phoenix is rising from the ashes they create, ref. the painting as a gift from Norway hanging in the UN Security Chamber with the Bird Phoenix in the middle.
Interesting comment, Jarle.
I am familiar with Blavaski and Pike and the rest for the most part. I am curious about one thing:
If evolution has done a wonderful job of getting us to where we are now, why would man want to tinker with it? It the theory is true, man should not intervene, like the CPS does, because it may hamper the evolutionary process.
My thoughts is on spiritual evolution Chris, not the Darwinistic type. I can not see anything wonderful with the World, other than people who wake up and care, that is the only beauty together with the Creation of nature undefiled by man. It is a gradually degradation of values and morals, collectively underway ‘downunder’. It is pure Biblical that we know that humanity is not evolving, on the contrary, the Bible throughout warn us about the way into the abyss, as in old testament it did for Israel and Judah to a degree they destroyed their own societies and was chased out in diaspora, and on how God allows the satanists and luciferians forces to unfold as a mean to bring people back to God (God using their evil for a higher good), ending up when this spirit of wickedness, of the Beast, is relased on humanity a last time as in the Bibles endtime book; The Revelations of John. Like William Penn said; “Those who will not be governed by God, will be governed by tyrants”, CPS workers or other evil tyrants on higher levels allowing them to do what they do.. is the zeitgeist of our times..as I described here:
Anti-Christ, the Zeitgeist of Our Times
http://www.riksavisen.no/anti-christ-the-zeitgeist-of-our-times/
All the suffering is there for a reason, a wake up call, as per 1 Peter 3:18… it works.. it will be a major backlash for them later on. Every action have a reaction.
Satanists don’t care what God wants, they do the opposite… intervene, to create their ideal of ShangriLa, the utopia.. anti-Christ kingdom, and they do hamper the spiritual evolutionary process as much as they can, but this time for the last time, before they are taken out of the equation. That’s the Biblical promise. Unforunately it have to be played out in all it’s uglyness, before it becomes better. the wheat and the tares, the sheeps and the goats is to be separated… So be it..
Hi Jarle,
I have watched more than one video that uses the term “Zeitgeist.” They are very interesting and I think you have tied them to scripture like others have.
So much of what you have said here is true. We do know this, at least I think we do: there will be a one world government, eventually. Most believe this because of the mark of the beast in the book of Revelation.
Many think that a one-world religion will accompany it.
I must be honest here. When I was focused on the Zeitgeist videos, my focus was removed from God’s Word.
What you have said here all seems to fit with scripture. That said, I am focused on understanding the scriptures as I will never do that completely. I am still working though a large collection of Spurgeon’s Expository Encyclopedia. I find this much more edifying than focusing on Zeitgeist videos.
I think, however, that the Zeitgeist videos have helped people to think in a spiritual way. You have quoted scripture. That is a good thing. If you believe in the gospel as presented in the Bible you are on the narrow path.
Some have been influenced by the same videos to find themselves in strange belief systems, new age thinking, and the like. It sounds like you are not one of them and I am glad.
I am not focusing on the zeitgeist film or refering to it at all, you do Chris 🙂
Zeitgeist is just a word, in general use it means ‘the spirit of our times’ a translation from the Norwegian word where we call it ‘tidsånden’… the zeitgeist of our times is luciferianism, mimicking the return of Jesus Christ…it is instead UN’s and Madam Blavatskis ‘christ’ that is returning, that is why I call it anti-Christ Zeitgeist. That is why all this peoples can claim they do good, dresses as Angels of Light and so few recognize them as evils, even Christians is deceieved, that is why so few ‘christians’ in Norway and all over recognize this what CPS do as evil (2 Corinthians 11:14), actually supports them…
Good for Piper he do it.
I see no signs that the spiritual backlash for the satanists/luciferians and Jesus Christs revival have started in Norway yet, because it is ideological secular political slogans based on ‘human rights’ the arguments is produced from here, not Biblical. Can get some win and loose politically that way, but no renewal of the spirit will be done that way, the zeitgeist of our times will remain untouched by political arguments only.
But I see good signs in The Eastern European movement we see unforlding, such as this page, East Europe where I am well connected and very familiar with history, read my share of Solshenitzin, Dostojevsky, Tolstoi, Wurmbrandt et al. The Eastern Europeans have lived the nighmare before, they will regognize evil when they see it, and this evil can only be understood and described rationally from the Biblical perspective. There is no terminology to describe it in any other language than the Christian terms. That is why they hate Christianity so much, trying to make a bastardized One World Religion bringing it into ecumenism. The only force and Spirit that will possible lay their evil plans endresult in ruins.
“I am not focusing on the zeitgeist film or refering to it at all, you do Chris.” 🙂
🙂 Gotcha, Jarle. It seems all the same to me. But, I think I understand you now.
I think I got the end but will you restate this part with clarity so that I can understand it better:
“I see no signs that the spiritual backlash for the satanists/luciferians and Jesus Christs revival have started in Norway yet, because it is ideological secular political slogans based on ‘human rights’ the arguments is produced from here, not Biblical. Can get some win and loose politically that way, but no renewal of the spirit will be done that way, the zeitgeist of our times will remain untouched by political arguments only.”
Short form, the UN ‘human rights’ (luciferian) is more a problem for Christian values and life than the solution….. the Biblical system of societies is nation states not supranational world government, look at old Israel, twelve tribes of Israel/Judah of same blood but so different they could not live together as in Babylon, any attempt to produce New Babylons will fail.. Political there is no solution without a change in spirit of the whole UN.
“The Lucis Trust [Lucifer Publishing] ] is the Publishing House which prints and disseminates United Nations material”
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_lucytrust04.htm
This systems only aim is to make all luciferian.. If they have worked to make all the World Christians I would concure, but not… and why Christians should support luciferian agendas is above my understanding…
Most of what CPS is doing in all nations is based on UN Conventions… Convention on the Rights of the Child. implementing pure satanism and luciferianism..
I am not a big U.N. fan, Jarle.
However, in 2008 the U.N. did publish a report that was very critical of Norway’s CPS system. Was this a show that was put on for us? I don’t know but I hope not.
The U.N. has not worked on so many levels. This is why we cannot give up our sovereignty to give them more power than they have now. No nation should.
It would be the same thing as Norway’s politicians giving up their political power any entity within their country. They have done this with their CPS and look at the consequences.
Some people think the U.N is going to be the “vehicle” that the anti-Christ uses to do what is spoken of in the book of Revelation. I’ll take a pass on making this assumption but I do think it is a possibility.
Yeh. The tragic thing is that the sacking of God from His throne of the World, they are infected with the luciferian demon spirits filling the void in them, without them realizing it themselves, making them work in concert and agreement without even a word is written or shared, not a convention is made… (they believe it is their own convictions, never question where the thoughts is coming from), the oldest conspiracy from the Holy Book, they have taken on this mentality of the fallen one – and act as One – One in Lucifer, where at least the socalled christians should have acted as One in Jesus Christ by consulting the Bible for guidance (Ephesians 6:12).
“We’re Legions, We’re many” (Mark 5:9).
I think you have mentioned one of so many scriptures that can help the Christian in times of need.
We Are Legions, We Are Many, We Are One
http://www.riksavisen.no/we-are-legions-we-are-many-we-are-one/
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 [f]in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
“Venuzuela and Costa Rica are the only ones in the American world.”
You have done your research, Knut.
Just off of the top of my head, Venezuela has hardly been a model society of late and I’m curious about Costa Rica.
I’ll have to check into that.
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There is a huge difference between spanking and violence, Knut. There is nobody here who supports violence or treating a child in a disrespectful demeaning way. I don’t think that the B daughters went to the teacher and complained about their parents. It was rather the other way around that the teacher went to the girls and asked leading questions. There are no parents who bring up their children exactly alike. If there is no room for differences something is wrong. Or do you think that a child who goes to his/ her teacher and complains about not getting as much pocket money as his/ her class mate should be taken away from the parents and placed in foster care?
Of course Hildi, everybody understands that. But I gave up on explaining to certain people. They can not make a difference between a slap or brutal beating. Well too bad. If my child runs into a street and does not listen, it will be slapped, so it would not get hit by a car. No need for that now, but to say that this is vioence and will almost create a criminal person with low IQ lol..That would mean all of my generation is criminal and my grandparents generation would then have to be evil. Well I seriously doubt it. I do have another view on corporal punishment now and I dont find it effective , surely when the children are older. But there are moments when its the only possibility, as I said, if a child would run into the street, or touch a hot stove. What is better? I know Knut will come and explain , how are there other methods, he probably thinks that a 2year old is like 8 year old and you can reason with them. Well dont think so, I think its a bigger torture to a child to spend hours explaining something he/she does not get, than one slap over the hand or butt.
I think exactly the same way as you here, Pavla. When my children were little I seldomly spanked them. I was rather too kind and patient some times. But, there were certain situations where I did give them a short and mild spank on their bottom to make them wake up and listen if they didn’t listen to my warning. It would be the last resort in a dangerous situation. I can’t remember exactly how old they were. But under a certain age or over a certain age it would not be natural to spank a child.
I remember how uncertain me and my husband were about disiplining our children. We would read books and ask others about their opinions and would always get another answer. I guess it is the same for most parents. it is lovely to have children, but can also at times, depending on the situation, be quite demanding.Besides, children are all very different and go through different phases. When I now see other parents who have problems with their children, I understand them because I can remember how difficult it sometimes was when we were young parents.
It is sad that parents can risk having their children taken away if they go to Barnevernet for help. Barnevernet should rather help parents if they are struggling than to destroy both parents and children.
Here is the song of children abusively removed by Norwegian CPS from their loveing and caring parents. Children say: “Jesus, you’re my way home”:
Beautiful song, Octavian! So good to know; Jesus is our way home! this world is getting darker and darker but when we have recieved Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we can have peace and joy. We know that whatever may come, the days become brighter because we will soon be home in our eternal home:-)
Last week I did the vocal recordings for my CD; “Under His Wings”. One of my songs is called ” When I get there” and is about heaven. The chorus goes; ” when I get there, when I get there, every sorrow’s swept away, overflowing joy’s to stay, oh when I see His face who saved me by His grace, there forever I shall worship and adore”.
It is so wonderful how the Lord led me through the week. I am so thankful to the Lord. I know that it was the Lord who helped me in every way. Jesus is the only way the truth and life! Having Jesus in our hearts and in our lives is the most important! In difficult times, we can hide under His wings.
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Reblogged this on ANA TATAR ANDRAS.
Mr. Nygaard, how are you.
In which books/ authors, academic facts (or links) do you have to share with us when it comes to the right and wrong upbringing of children in the eyes of the Norwegian state (the law) ?
I’m thinking of social College curriculum (sosialhøyskole pensum eller lignende) or other relevant, so that we all can get the chance to understand barnevernets theories, way of thinking, acting, alalysis, risky homes or what they call it, how they are learned to inform and help parents who do not have a PhD in children upbringing, how barnevernet do their judgments and whether the theories/ examples seems logic, based on quality studies, and convincing facts etc.
Since I have not studied upbringing of children before, we’re probably talking about at least 3 years curriculum (pensum) that you can refer to, but not everybody has this education, and are trained social workers, so please refer to common, standard knowledge that’s demanded as public knowledge of everybody staying and living in Norway, as the State/ municipality/ child services (barnevernet) will demand understood and followed 100 % (or else) by the barnevern law, thus storm into the family home with police removing children if not followed. (excuse me my English..).
I mean, this knowledge the sosial workers have been taught and trained in for at least 3 years of higher education – they don’t teach parents who live and stay in Norway, even though they will surely judge these parents on these theories/ knowledge, and “assume it’s common knowledge” I guess, which it is not..
Have a great day.
You get a lot of information using this link – it’s about violence done in the closest relations – in the Family – the psychology of violence – done by Per Isdal – a going through in PDF – you must scroll Down this link
http://www.bing.com/search?q=alternativ+til+vold+per+isdal&src=IE-TopResult&FORM=IE11TR&conversationid=
until you find ” Vold i nære relasjoner – voldens psykologi.
Is Barnevernet aware, Knut, that a child who is experiencing problems or creating problems can have very good parents and the reasons for their problems or misbehaviour could lie somewhere else?
There is difference between theory and knowledge. Regrettably, Norwegian CPS practices is based mostly on theory. When these theories are put into practice, the results are devastating. Part of the problem is the fact that child welfare in Norway is not evidence-based. Children brought up by government do not do well in any quality-of-life surveys. They never did, and they never will. The Norwegian CPS try to compensate this by doing adjustments instead of asking basic questions about their own activities and measures. The most prominent misbelief these days is that children will be better off if the CPS intervenes earlier. Tragically, truth might very well be to the contrary:- children will be better off with later or no intervention at all! The reasoning behind “earlier intervention” is in fact disasterous for children and is built on assumptions, as there is no scientific evidence that children are better off in foster care than in their own homes, even in cases where parents have difficulty giving significant care.
Wise comments from John Piper.
“The most prominent misbelief these days is that children will be better off if the CPS intervenes earlier.”
This belief will only be true if earlier intervention means also lighter intervention for most of the cases. Emergency foster care is only an option if CPS is already far too late.
However it seems the tendency is early forced foster care — which is hard to interpret otherwise than conducting inhuman experiences on children.
Quite right, Jasper.
In practice, early intervention means either taking the baby right away, or else putting the mother in such a position and place that she will be under a command and surveillance to drive her stark mad, and so the CPS has all sorts of big and small things of accusing her of and have an easy time getting approval for taking the baby.
Jak nie wiadomo o co chodzi to wiadomo ze o pieniadze.Instytucje pomocy dzieciom pochlaniaja 20 miliardow koron.Zniszczenie jednego dziecka okolo 25 milionow ,czasem wiecej.Firma ktora prowadzi domy dziecka ma 550 milionow zysku rocznie.Rodzina zastepcza dostaje 400 000 -600 ooo koron rocznie.Dzieci oplaca sie porywac i dawac je swoim krewnym i znajomym czyli zrobic z nich rodziny zastepcze.A walka o zwrot dzieci to walka z potezna ,zyskowna organizacja ,ktora nie chce tracic pieniedzy .Dziecko to waluta w ich rekach Byla wypowiedz jakiegos pana ktory mowil ,ze potrzebuje 35 000 dzieci zeby mu sie oplacalo prowadzic dom dziecka.Dlatego pracownicy ida w miasto i lapia dzieci bo kromka chleba byla za gruba… Prawidlowe slowo to nie barnas beste tylko dobry biznes robiony na krzywdzeniu dzieci.
Gabrielle, as far as I undestand Interpol only has a messenger role between police in different countries.
The ball is now at Polish authorities (police and courts) and it is their sovereign decision what to do with it.
You are right Gabriela. Barnevernet is a business. Every case they fabricate generates “activity” for a great number of people as you said. Do you know a case in Poland that had to deal with Norwegian CPS? It would be great if you could put us in touch with them.
Many do make their livings off of the BV, Octavian.
It seems like a bad business model though as it costs way more than it takes in.
The philosophy of this system is going to break the people of Norway in more ways than one if there is no change in the right direction.
Octavian: perhaps ask private detective Krysztof Rutkowski.
He’s colleagues have rescued a girl named N. R. first. After that another half Polish half Russian boy has read about the case and called Rutkowski to rescue him, which he has also done.
He did it so neat that there was not enough evidence in the hands of Norwegian authorities for a kidnapping case…
(He also appeared on the side of the Olsen Myra family on some pictures from yesterday afternoon — this guy must have a good sense of humour 🙂 ).
Kto wie czy Norwegowie nie inwestuja olbrzymich pieniedzy w swoja zaglade.
Pytanie bylo czy jest ktos tak genialny jak Zaremba.jest tu kilka ksiazek o bolesnej historii Norwegii ( Skammens historii,-historia wstydu Tysker jenetene -dziwczyny niemcow – o powojennych losach kobiet sympatyzujacych z Niemcani i dzieci z tych zwiazkow.,Verre enn sitt rykte gorsi niz opinia o nich-to o brutalnosci wikingow,Nadelose Nordmenn-3 tomowa trylogia o wspolpracy Norwegow z Niemcami podczas 2 wojny swiatowej Norwegowie byli bardziej brutalni niz Niemcy.Zabili 75 % Jugoslowianskich jencow w obozach torturujac wiezionych.Niemcy przywiazli jugoslowian zeby budowali tu drogi.
O polskich dzieciakach porwanuch przez barnevernet -napisze pozniej
Polka lat 9 porwana ze szkoly ZA BRAK USMIECHU na buzi.Porwana z rodziny zastepczej przez rodzicow bilologicznych i detektywa Rutkowskiego.Przywieziona szczesliwie do Polski.
Po porwaniu dziewczynki ze szkoly barnevernet odmowilo odpowiedzi na list polskiej ambasady ktora interweniowala w tej sprawie.Twierdzili ze to tylko ich , norweska sprawa choc dotyczyla Polakow.
Po przewiezieniu dziewczynki do Polski ,pani Mona -pracownica barenvernet przyjechala do Polski rowniez i rozpoczela walke o dziewczynke w polskim sadzie .Sprawe przegrala.
Nie mogla zrozumiec ze jej decyzje o zabraniu dziewczynki nie OBOWIAZUJE NA CALYM SWIECIE i nie rozumiala ,ze powinna odpisac na list polskiej ambasady .Mam wiec pytanie jaki IQ ma pani Mona?
Pracownicy barnevernet testuja inteligencje biologicznych rodzicow.Pytanie w tescie — Kto jest prezydentem Australi?Jezeli rodzice nie wiedza to wedlug pracownikow barenevernet nie sa inteligentni i zabieraja im mlode.
Niestety nikt nie robi testow na inteligencje pracownikom barnevernet.
Pani Mona mogla by startowac do Hollywod.Wygra na pewno casting na czarownice.Nie trzeba jej charakteryzowac.
Dlaczego pani Mona ,pracownica barnevernet nie rozumiala sytuacji.Dziewczynka byla smutna bo jej babcia przewieziona zostala do szpitala.To sa roznice kulturowe, ktore postaram sie wyjasnic.Zmarl Norweg okolo70 lat.Mieszkal w bloku w Oslo ( blok ma wielu lokatorow ,wiele mieszkan).Ten czlowiek mial rodzine.Syna i corke oraz wnuki.Rodzina odkryla ze zmarl 3 lata po jego smierci.
Mysleli ,ze po 2 ale data waznosci produktow spozywczych w lodowce konczyla sie 3 lata temu.Norwegowie odkryli wiec nowe zastosowanie daty przydatnosci produktow spozywczych .Pozwala na okreslenie przyblizonej daty smierci rodzicow.Byly podobne przypadki w Szwecji .Problemem Szwecji sa nie odbierane urny z prochami zmarlych.Wysoki procent urn nie zostaje przez rodzine odebrane.Taki obraz skandynawskiego ciepla rodzinnego.
So, Knut on my questions about barnevernet’s ideology “..when it comes to the right and wrong upbringing of children in the eyes of the Norwegian state (the law) ?
I’m thinking of social College curriculum (sosialhøyskole pensum eller lignende) or other relevant, so that we all can get the chance to understand barnevernets theories, way of thinking, acting, alalysis, risky homes or what they call it, how they are learned to inform and help parents who do not have a PhD in children upbringing, how barnevernet do their judgments..”
I understand by your answer. “..violence done in the closest relations – in the Family – the psychology of violence – done by Per Isdal..the link”
domestic violence is the only risk bv takes into consideration?
You and I know that’s not true, then social workers would need only 1 month school to “save children” from theese kinds of homes, and not at least 3 years sosialhøyskole. And if this was the case, that domestic violence is the problem you’re helping families with, why don’t barnevernet educate children from 12 years of age, in school, about domestic violence, what is the signs and so on, and teach them the barnevern law; what is their rights as children and adults, and what is expected of them as parents later? Now this, would change alot, don’t you think?
Since there seems to have been some confusion among readers not conversant with the Norwegian legal system in Barnevern cases where there is BOTH an accusation of not giving sufficient care AND an accusation of criminal conduct, as in the Bodnariu case, I think this case below gives an idea of what the criminal case may be like. Notice that the criminal case is not finished until long after the preliminaries and the charge. In this case Barnevernet has talked with the mother back in 2013, the final judgment in the criminal case has come now.
This is a case in which a mother is now going to prison for smacking her children on their bottom and cheek and pinched their ears so hard that it hurt:
“Mor utøvde vold mot barn som gjorde lekser” (Mother was violent to children while they did homework)
https://www.nrk.no/ostfold/mor-utovde-vold-mot-barn-som-gjorde-lekser-1.13014740
The mother had punished the children physically if she thought they did not do their homework properly or if they misbehaved in other ways. A teacher had seen that the children had bruises, and the children have reported that she beat them. They said their mother did not cease her correction until she had had her second meeting with Barnevernet in 2013.
On one occasion the mother had apparently had a very strong bout of anger and did not stop beating the children before her husband gave her a talking-to.
Last autumn the criminal case against the mother was up before Heggen and Frøland District Court, which brought in a judgment of prison for 30 days. The public prosecutor appealed. Now the appeal has been up before the Appeal Court and the prison sentence has been increased to 120 days, but 100 days are conditional (do not have to be served unless she commits new offenses within a certain period, usually two years). She also has to pay each child NOK 15,000 in compensation.
The juridical system in Norway (at least with respect to Barnevernet) seems to be a tragedy.
I am getting more and more convinced that these are ideological show trials. Similar to the ones in the Communist Era in the Eastern block in the 1950ies and 1960ies.
Yes I agree, they are – in a sense – show trials. They are aimed at scaring others. But they are more than a show in the sense of a facade, because there are actually so many of them, Jasper. More than I have the resources to collect and comment on all the time.
There have been lots of show trials in Hungary after 1956 and in Czech Republic after 1968 as well…
Not only show trials due to fear.
Also due to evidences to be considered or not considered and further investigations to do or not to do seems to be decided not on juridical but on ideological basis.